From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM
To: mjanke@miamiferret.org
Subject: (Fwd) Adrenal List #01

Forwarded message:
From:     Self <faiml>
To: @SENDLIST.PML
Subject: Adrenal List #01
Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh <faiml@sttl.uswest.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:41:03

This list was put together from correspondence between the first 
group of members, prior to the list format.  Our very first posting 
is dated April 16, 1997.  It's kind of fun to see how the first 
adrenal group list of addresses grows from the first post to the 
last, and on into List #2. This first list does sort of come across 
as the "Lynn McIntosh" list, but I was trying to get a group dialogue 
going!  I didn't save original messages at first where my replies 
included the whole original message, so a couple of my listings are 
really replies (ah hem, I was feeling a big outspoken)...

Adrenal List #1, dated April 21, 1997

1. Re: E-Mail group?
2. Re: Nickodemus
3. Stumped - post-arenalectomy problems (fwd)
4. Post-adrenal problems
5. Petey
6. Percy 
7. Nickodemus/Percy

1.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 16 Apr 1997 18:51:59 -0000
From: dervish@scrye.com
Subject: Re: E-mail group?

Yes please count me in.  I have an update on Nickodemus's condition.
After more than two weeks on his first antibiotic Cefadroxil he wasn't
as drippy as before but was still having a continual discharge of this
milky white or sometimes green or yellow tinted stuff.  If I asperated
his eurithra gently he maybe was producing 3 drops a day.  He would lick
it up so It could be more.  He is NOT straining and he seems fairly 
normal except that he's always the first to konk out and go to sleep
after playtime.  So Yesterday he want back to the vet and he took a 
sample and the this time is running a C&S to tell us if this is an
active infection or one we are slowly draining that has been mostly 
beat.  Anyway he's now on his new anti-biotic Amoxicillin trihydrate/ 
Clavulanate potassium  He hates the taste and sprayed me with it the
first time I gave it to him last night.  I got it in him and this 
morning as well.  I just have to learn to get dressed AFTER he gets
his medicine as I got a fine misting this morning. :)  Go ahead and
pass this post on,  even to the FML I'm not sending it to them directly
as we haven't solved anything were just working on the problem.

-Dixie Carter

2.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: dervish@scrye.com
cc: Adrenal List-- Barbara Gustafson <barbg@oanet.com>,
    Beth <Beth4Ferrets@worldnet.att.net>, Dixie Carter 
    <dervish@scrye.com>,
    Lorraine Tremblay <fcshop@ferretcuriosity.on.ca>,
    Pam Franklin <PFranklin@panlabs.com>,
    Troy Lynn Eckart <teckart@oz.oznet.ksu.edu>
Re: Nickodemus

Hi there Dixie!

I'm sorry Nickodemus is still having some problems after two weeks on his
first antibiotic.  Percy has been on antibiotics for a week for a urinary
tract infection, but is still acting very male (though his vet still isn't
convinced it's adrenal - part of me is glad I have a vet who doesn't jump
to conclusions; the other part is wondering if he's keeping up to date!). 
I'm going to go into my "Percy" e-mail file and try to dig up a good
history on him, so I can post a reply to Barbara's post to me a while back
preceeded by some background on Percy so it will make better sense to the
group, since he comes up in the reply.  I know you've posted on Nickodemus
on the FML but maybe the group could use a short synopsis of his adrenal
history. But I'm passing on the post as you mentioned!

Lynn Mc.

PS.  Hey, I guess a good start to the group would be a short introduction
to ourselves and the ferrets that brought us here!  I'll work on mine soon
but probably won't get it out till tomorrow.

Ferret Dooks and Kisses,

Lynn and the Gang of Eight

On 16 Apr 1997 dervish@scrye.com wrote:

> Yes please count me in.  I have an update on Nickodemus's condition.
> After more than two weeks on his first antibiotic Cefadroxil he
wasn't... 


3. ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
From:  Lynn Mcintosh
To: Adrenal Group 
Subject: Stumped...post-adrenalectomy problems (fwd)

This is sort of what got the group idea started - three people writing to
the FML about post-adrenalectomy symtoms that might be related, combined
with Percy's problems, and then not a big response to this message to the
FML.  I've taken out the Percy part of the postings as that's in the
history I sent, but as I'm writing to Barbara and this mentions Tippie's
problems, I'm forwarding it.  Dixie and Lorraine's issues are highlighted
as well.

Hope my summaries of your fur-kids are accurate!  Sorry Barbara's message
got garbled a bit.

Now I'm about ready to shut up for awhile!  (Well, after I send my short
message in reply to Barbara).  I see she has the "reddish skin" problem,
too.  

By the way, one person suggested I might come across as
anti-adrenalectomy, and I just want to assure the group that this isn't so
at all;  the surgery is necessary and sometimes completely curative.  One
thing that puzzles me is the problems following some adrenal surgeries,
possibly related to continued secretion of some excessive hormones.  As
Dr.  Dutton's summary confirms, getting some of the diseases tissue can
help alleveiate symtoms, at least for awhile.

Lynn

BEGIN FORWARD of FML MESSAGE:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:27:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Lynn Mcintosh
To: ferret fml <ferret-list@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
Cc: Barbara Gustafson <barbg@OANET.COM>,
    Lorraine Tremblay <fcshop@FERRETCURIOSITY.ON.CA>,
    Dixie Carter <dervish@SCRYE.COM>
Subject: Stumped...post-adrenalectomy problems (fwd)

> > Date:  Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:37:12 -0700 
> > From:  Barbara Gustafson <barbg@OANET.COM> 
> > Subject: Stumped 

BARBARA WROTE: Tippie my Olympic wanna be has a problem that has been
going on for well over a year now.  She scratches constantly.  She will be
three this year. At age 1 1/2 she underwent surgery for adrenal tumor. 
Her right (I think)  gland was removed and she bounced right back. 
Actually the only symptom she had was complete hair loss on her tail.  not
any sore spots or excema.  She has lots of energy and eats and drinks
well.  In fact sometimes I think she is too hyper.  Certainly she has more
energy then my other two ferts.  He thought it might be a reoccurrence of
the adrenal so he did an exploratory and found nothing.  Then he thought
it might be something wrong with her thyroid and so we tried her on
medication for 8 weeks but no difference.  She also will occasionally get
what I can hot spots, where the skin at the back of her neck will look
reddish for a while. Also her hair is thin looking you can see the skin
easily.  This is driving me and her crazy.  Some days she'll even jump up
out of a sound sleep just to scratch.  I don't know what else to do. 

LYNN WROTE: I've seen three posts lately of post-adrenelectomy ferrets
with problems including excessive urination, drinking, and scratching, and
hair loss or thinning.  I hope others who have had post-adrenalectomy
ferrets (shelter operators who have seen many adrenalectomy patients?) 
can help us out. 

Recently Lorraine Trombley wrote about her ferret, Pepe La Pew, a
4-yr-old female, who "drinks and scratches herself more often" since
adrenal surgery, and who has a more "reddish-golden-brown" belly area, and
possibly thinner skin, smells muskier "like ear wax" and has split or
broken whiskers.  Dixie Carter has also written that her ferret, who had
an adrenalectomy as well, was found during exploratory to have a cyst on
the prostrate that has continued to cause problems - though the cyst was
drained during surgery - including increased urination and drippiness. 
And now Barbara is writing about Tippie.

Our Percy, like Barbara's Tippie, is highly energetic, with a good
appetite and lots of energy.  He's on an excellent diet of Totally Ferret
mixed with the hightest quality cat growth foods...

END FORWARD FROM FML

Then I go on about Percy (See Adrenal List Biofiles).  

Lynn

4.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Mcintosh 
To: Adrenal Group
Subject: Re: Post-adrenal problems

Hi Barbara!

I saved your message so I could post back as a group.  So here goes!

On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Barbara Gustafson wrote:

> Lynn,
> 
> Tippie is doing great (other than the scratching)  One thing I found
> interesting was the reference to "feeling warm to the touch."  Tippie is
> the same way.  She hasn't shown any of the other symptoms such as excessive
> urinating.  Just scratching, warm to the touch, thinning hair and hair on
> tail never grew back after surgery.

I heard this first from Bob Church on the FML about an adrenal ferret he
had; he thought it might be related to less hair and consequently more
heat realease needed to raise the body heat. Percy has the thinning hair
on neck and tummy, and his scratching comes and goes. A vet in Seattle who
has a ferret that has had a double adrenalectomy says the hair never grows
back real great.

> Most of the other advice I've received seems to center around allergies. 
> With the exception of cutting out the use of Bounce in the dryer I'd
> already tried the other allergy possibilities.

It could be allergies.  Tippie is a gal, right?  So she wouldn't be prone
to the UT infections (related to enlarged prostate in adrenal-disease
ferrets) and the male behavior.  But Percy, as well as the
male-adrenal-type symptoms, has red skin on his neck, and thinning hair.
The vet scraped his skin but found nothing.  He's giving him an antibiotic
that might help with any bacterial problems he's having in the skin (I
think this is what he meant). He also said the red inflamed skin isn't
typical of adrenal...  but I'm not sure that's true, but the FAQ mentions
red patches.  I've given all the disease FAQ's to my vet. 

> The suggestion of possible "bursts of hormones" is interesting and possibly
> worth investigating further.  I do find that Tippie has an abundance of
> energy.  I'd almost compare her with a hyper active child.  Do you think
> there might be a connection there.

Hormones do funny things.  Percy does have bursts of energy, and itching,
but than he's always been a very energetic guy.  My partner, though,
observes him more closely and says he does seem to have quite sporatic
energy.

Well, I'm shutting up now for awhile.  Hope everyone's having a good
weekend.  It's a gorgeous day here in Seattle and I'm going to get the
kids outside for a bit, and head out to do a bit of gardening (if the dirt
isn't too soaked from the torrential downpour yesterday!)  I'll write one
more short letter to my vet and let you all know later what the drug he's
considering is.

Take Care,

Lynn Mc.


5.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Mcintosh 
To: Troy Lynn Eckart <teckart@oz.oznet.ksu.edu>
Cc: Adrenal Group
Subject: Re: Petey

On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Troy Lynn Eckart wrote:

> Hi All -
> Late last year Petey had his left adrenal removed.  The right seemed 
> fine at the time.  Shortly after, he started exhibiting "manly" 
> behavior and his fur never grew back.  Our vet doesn't feel 
> comfortable debulking the right when it is all they have so we opted 
> for Lysodren.  Petey got a Depoprovera shot to calm him down, which 
> worked well.  He's on Lysodren and starting to grow fur on the sides 
> of his back legs.  Our pharmacist mixes the lysodren with lactose 
> and puts it in individual capsules. At first we did not get any 
> results from the Lysodren then Suki mentioned that it needs to be 
> given in something that isn't water based.  I started mixing it with 
> linatone and noticed a difference quickly.  Petey gets his lysodren 
> every 3rd day and takes it like a trooper.  I missed one dose last 
> week and he started having bladder problems but now that we are back 
> on schedule he is doing well.
> 
> We did 7 adrenal surgeries last year and I have 2 more to do sometime 
> soon.
> 
> That's our story.
> 
> Hugs to all. tle
> 

Hi Troy Lynn.  Knowing you I didn't think you'd mind if I forwarded this
to the complete list.  I noticed it had gone to the first list of names
and we have 14 now!

It sounds like what our Percy may need is Lysodren, but his vet is
suggesting a testosterone-countering drug.  But I'll get the name of the
drug first and post to you all and the FML to see what info I can gather,
since this is what our vet thinks we should do at this point.

Was the deprovera for the manly behavior?  Or, how did the shot calm his
down? Percy isn't hairless at this point, just overly manly, with UT
problems (plus the thinning neck/tummy hair and spotty orange neck).

What sort of bladder problems did Petey have when you missed the Lysodren?
Percy goes often, a little, and strains a tad.  Has the manly behavior
gone away for Petey?

I'm also wondering if anyone knows the longterm effects of Lysodren or has
seen any longterm negative effects, or shorterm scary side effects.

Take Care Troy Lynn.  I'm glad Lysodren is helping your Petey.

Lynn Mc.

PS.  It sounds like you're one of our resident experts, with 7 adrenal
surgeries in one year, and two on the way!  Wow.

Lynn


6.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:52:18 -0600
To: Troy Lynn Eckart <teckart@oz.oznet.ksu.edu>
From: Lynn Mcintosh 
Cc: Adrenal Group 
Subject: Re: Percy

> Hi Troy Lynn.  Knowing you I didn't think you'd mind if I forwarded this
> to the complete list.  I noticed it had gone to the first list of names
> and we have 14 now!<

You are right of course. :-)
 
> Was the deprovera for the manly behavior? <

This is probably the drug your vet is referring to.  And yes it was.  
It worked quite well.  It also increases appetite which in Petey's 
case was needed.  This drug will do nothing for adrenal disease and 
you will still have UTI's if they are adrenal related.  I rely 
heavily on the "manly" behavior to cue me in male adrenal problems.  
In females it seems to be more aggressiveness.  In both sexes I think 
of it as MAJOR PMS. :-)

> Percy isn't hairless at this point, just overly manly, with UT
> problems (plus the thinning neck/tummy hair and spotty orange neck).

Sure sounds adrenal to me.
 
> What sort of bladder problems did Petey have when you missed the Lysodren?>

I caught it almost immediately.  He was still urinating but there was 
a small bit of milky white pus on his ummm... tummy.  I check him in 
that area daily and it wasn't there the day before.  He did urinate 
shortly after I checked him so he wasn't having a problem going.

> Has the manly behavior gone away for Petey?<

Yep, all gone.  The Depo shot was probably the most helpful in this 
area.  But then you have to be watchful with the UTI's.   Bud is our 
boy now that is showing "manly" behavior.  He has a full beautiful 
coat though.  I'm checking him daily too.  

> I'm also wondering if anyone knows the longterm effects of Lysodren or has
> seen any longterm negative effects, or shorterm scary side effects.<

The short term is vomiting.  When our pharmacist mixed it in liquid 
form we had vomiting.  I haven't had any problems with vomiting 
since we started using the powder form.  The capsules are so tiny I 
suppose you could put them down the throat but that might prove a 
little stressful on medicator and medicatee.  Lysodren is a chemo 
drug and should be used with caution.  Our vet suggested gloves but I 
don't use them.  I'm very careful with the capsule and the drug never 
touches my hands. I squirt a little linatone in a tablespoon, empty 
the capsule and stir it with the tip of a syringe.  I put the capsule 
back together and toss it deep in the trash bag.  

I wonder if some of the controversy about Lysodren working is because 
it is not mixed properly,  such as with water based liquids.  At 
first I used our recipe, which is water/pedialyte based, and saw 
little results but as soon as I started using it with the linatone I 
saw major improvement.  Some mix it with Nutrical with good results.
 
> PS.  It sounds like you're one of our resident experts, with 7 adrenal
> surgeries in one year, and two on the way!  Wow.<

Out of the 7, 2 have passed on.  Ferry (6 yrs old)  died in her sleep 
several months after her surgery.  Surgery went well but she was 
never the same.  She had a weak constitution and I think the surgery 
took it's toll.  Clyde II was laid to rest on Sunday April 13 after 
24 hours in a hypoclycemic coma.  I did everything I could but 
couldn't bring him around, he was 6+ years old.

It is very possible our severe bout of ECE contributed to their 
demise by weaking their immune systems so...

 Hugs to all. tle


7.---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:27:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Mcintosh 
To: dervish@scrye.com
Cc: -- Barbara Gustafson <barbg@oanet.com>,
    Beth <Beth4Ferrets@worldnet.att.net>, Dixie Carter <dervish@scrye.com>,
    Ellen Jensen <rainbow@iserv.net>, ferreton@pond.com,
    Gabby <ferty@pacbell.net>, Lee McKee <lmckee@user1.channel1.com>,
    Lorraine Tremblay <fcshop@ferretcuriosity.on.ca>,
    lotaweasel <lotaweasel@hub.infoave.net>,
    Pam Franklin <PFranklin@panlabs.com>, ROCHELLE@art.fss.buffalo.edu,
    Ster2872@aol..com, Troy Lynn Eckart <teckart@oz.oznet.ksu.edu>
Subject: Re: Nickodemus/Percy

Hi Dixie!

On 21 Apr 1997 dervish@scrye.com wrote:

> Hello fellow Adrenal mom's and dad's
> 
> I just wanted to drop a quick line to you all today and tell you that
> the lab test on Nicodemus's mucus discharges has turned up to be an
> E-Coli infection in his prostrate.  My Vet thinks it was opportunistic
> and spread to the cist in his prostrate.  Fortunately it should , and
> is, respond to our current antibiotics.  He's gone from being able to
> asperate several drops of this stuff and day to barely a drop a day.

My first thought was that that would mean the infection wasn't related to
adrenal problems - yeah!  But then I found myself wondering if Nicodemus
prostrate is enlarged, as I've read that the benign enlargement related to
adrenal disease can lead to bladder infections.  Of course, Percy's vet
said his prostate wasn't enlarged in November at surgery time, but he has
had UT infections.  I get so confused about this illness!

 > I had to learn to asperate his urithra (sp?).  Fun, fun, fun. He's my >
baby though and I'll do anything I can for him.  > He used to bother his
sister with all this sniffing and neck grabbing > to the point we had to
cage them separately at night because otherwise > we'd be up in the night
separated a locked-on Nicodemus from her neck.

That's poor little Minnie's plight now :(  So he quit the behavior
following surgery, or did it continue for awhile?

  > Now they are sleeping
and playing together just fine.  It's interesting > because he didn't
bother his other sister at all..  Of course they were > picked at the same
time and are probably litter mates.  His hair is of > very good quality
where it grew back.  He just has a bald spot above > his tail and half his
tail is bare. 

Percy only bothers Minnie, but Claudette would clobber him if he came near
(in fact he was peacefully drinking this morning and she nailed him on the
ear, poor guy), and Mincie was spayed as a wee thing and is a newcomer to
the group, which could make a difference I suppose.  Percy has always
adored Minnie anyway.  He hasn't made a play for the 15-lb. cat, and old
15-yr. grump thank goodness!  Maybe the hair is seasonal and will regrow
(if the surgery was recent) and Nickodemus will be one of the
post-surgical full-recoverers!

Some ideas we could do as a group - down the line - are symptom
compilation, case study tracking/comparison, collect info on number of
full recoverers/length of recovery.  Or we could find a researcher to do
this and provide info to them!  Am I getting ahead of myself or what!  To
begin with a listserve would be nice - I've got to order that new
computer! 

> that's all for now I'll have to write the whole history when I've got 
> the time
> -Dixie Carter

Great Dixie.  Sorry about being a big mouth, but some things in Dixie's
and Troy Lynn's posts seemed related to Percy's plight.

I hope you all are not overwhelmed by my beginning slush of messages!

Take Care and hugs to the fuzzies,

Lynn Mc.


--------------------------End of Adrenal List #1------------------------