From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM To: mjanke@miamiferret.org Subject: (Fwd) Adrenal List #13 Forwarded message: From: Self To: @SENDLIST.PML,@SENDLIST.PML Subject: Adrenal List #13 Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:30:27 Hi there! I've included replies to Beth that you already received separately, just so they're saved in a list. I've been gardening solid all weekend (behind on e-mail of course), except for taking all eight fur kids out in the side yard each day, which is ferret proofed with monitoring. Monitoring included, tonight, almost each ferret climbing up my back and onto my head (as I sat on a little side perch of plywood), one ferret climbing down my shirt and sleeve with a little dining on my wrist, as she is prone. Then five crawling into my lap - one with a little ferret "woof" resultant from a small spat, imparting that special ferret scent into the scene - and going to sleep. As I sat covered in dust from the dry side yard, gazing up at the nine-foot laurel hedge four feet away, gazing down at a lapful of five, tired fur kids, including two really dirty albinos, mom and daughter... I realized it was one of those moments that makes it all worthwhile... each and every painful, costly, scary adrenal surgery, and all the rest... sigh - am I sentimental after four sunny days in Seattle or what?! I hope Sully is continuing to improve. As for Percy and his male agression/urinary problems, I'm printing everything up about drugs for treating male aggression and urinary problems - when surgery is not an option or has been done too recently to repeat right away - and I've received many messages thanks to our group, and talking with my vet this week! Thanks to each and every one of you for contributing with posts or just by listening, Lynn Mc. and the Gang of 8, and Schroeder Boat and Squeek in spirit... Adrenal List #13, dated May 18, 1997 1. Adrenal ferret????? Post Adrenal Group 2. Reply to Beth re: Sully's Surgery Recovery 3. Post-op Post - Sully 4. Reply: Post-op Post - Sully 5. Who is bashing? 6. Prednisone After Adrenal Surgery 7. Reply to Reply: Post-op Post 8. Beth's Reply: Post-op Post - Sully 1.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:14:26 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Adrenal ferret????? Post Adrenal Group Hi Lynn, It was suggested I write to Dr. Dutton for advise regarding Tippie's condition. My question to his response is this. What exactly is the Tennessee test? Can it be done here in Canada or do you have to forward to this Tennessee University to get the results? ---------- > From: MADWAH@aol.com > To: barbg@oanet.com > Subject: Re: Adrenal ferret????? > Date: Friday, May 16, 1997 6:04 AM > > I would put adrenal disease at the top of list. A confirming test would be > the adrenal panel run by the University of Tennessee Veterinary Diagnostic > lab. I would do that first before another surgery. > Other causes of hair loss and itches would be scabies (a type of mite), > allergies. But neither of those would give a swollen vulva. > > Have your vet run the Tennessee test. > > Mike Dutton, DVM, DABVP > Weare, NH, USA 2. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:49:10 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Reply to Beth re: Sully's Surgery Recovery Post to Adrenal Group > From: Beth > Subject: Post to adrenal list- Sully's Surgery > > Sully had exploratory surgery on Wednesday. Unfortunately it turned out to > be a lot more than a left adrenal. He had both adrenals removed leaving > just a tiny piece of the right, a lymph node removed, a mass taken off his > pancreas and his spleen removed. We had originally decided to leave his > spleen but the Dr. called me during surgery & said it was huge. I didn't > want him to have surgery again in a few months. He came home Thurs. & was > pretty out of it. Unfortunately he still looked pretty groggy this morning > so we did give him 1/4 of a tablet of Pred. Today, Friday he had subQ > fluids and may need them again on Sat. If he does not improve he will get > pred every day & may start him on Fluronef? as early as Sunday. Our vet is > now exploring other options including an injection that only has to be given > every 6 weeks. My ferret Bear had the left adrenal out & was running around > the house the next day so I'm a little anxious & worried about how flopped > Sully is. His color & temperature is good but he's not interested in eating > or drinking. He knows his Ferretvite tastes funny with the antibiotic > crushed up in it. I'm glad to be home for the weekend to take care of him. > Beth Hi Beth, Just wanted to let you know that I think Sully will most likely be just fine. Hobie was exactly like this when he had his right adrenal removed on top of a tumor removal off the urinary track plus had his teeth cleaned. It was three or four days before he was back on his feet. His poor little belly was terribly bruised. A suggestion for the meds, if Sully likes banana is to crush the pills and mix them into some mushed banana. Hobie still gets his daily meds this way and licks the bowl clean. > From: "Michael F. Janke" > Subject: Adrenal females post > >Reply to Barbara Gustafson > Both my adrenal ferrets were very itchy. Max, who definitely has an > enlarged right adrenal, as noted during surgery to remove the left, is > always scratching. I think the hot to the touch part *might* just be due > to very thin hair and their 102 normal temperature coming through to your > hand. A human with a 102 temp feels really hot and when we feel that > temperature, it's a natural reaction to think it abnormal. Thanks Michael for that information. I knew ferrets had a higher temperature than us two legged critters but for some reason my brain didn't connect as being a reason why she would feel so hot. > > I couldn't say about the vulva since I've never had a female ferret! By > the way, Max is going to the vet tomorrow for the decision on when/if we go > in for the right adrenal. I have decided to take Tippie in yet again and subject her to the surgery. I intend to copy all the information we've accumulated in this group and present it to my vet at his time. Thanks to Lynn and her diligence in keeping this list going! I think you deserve a big "THANK YOU LYNN" from the entire group. 3.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:00:26 -0400 From: "Michael F. Janke" Subject: Post-op Post In regards to the few posts this morning about recovery from surgery... I think we're expecting too much from these little guys. They are pretty tough and while adrenal surgery isn't quite open heart surgery, it is major and I don't think they should be out bounding about in one or two days. I wouldn't worry too much if they're not their old, normal self in two or three days. Of course if you think they're not progressing normally, talk to your vet, but they do need recovery time. More so for the older guys. When Max had his left adrenal removed in March, I kept him confined to the upper level of his two level cage for over a week. I felt there was no reason he had to get out and play after being opened from his sternum (if they have such a thing) to his prepuce. He's 5 and he didn't seem that eager to get out. He mostly slept for a week or more. At about day 3 I gently lifted him out of his cage and set him down on the bedroom carpet. He got about 5 feet and I scooped him up and put him back in his cage and said "Ok, that's enough exercise for today!" I also hand fed him A/D and chicken baby food for the first three days to make sure he got plenty of nurishment. As for bruising... Max had none, zero, zip, while Punky Doodle came home with one huge bruise covering his whole belly all the way down to the insides of his hind legs. It took a very long time for all the bruising to be completely gone... well over a month. And this wasn't just light bruising, it was deep dark purple and black and was pretty horrible looking. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke - mjanke@bridge.net * Member, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * Editor, SFFCR's Ferret Footnotes Newsletter * Webmaster, SFFCR's web site * * Shelter Website - http://www.bridge.net/~mjanke 4.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 07:00:26 -0400 From: Lynn McIntosh Subject: Reply: Post-op Post Thanks again, Michael! When I imagine myself with an incision of the size, proportionately, Percy's was... well, I see what you mean! Percy continued to get his turkey soup and hand-droppered water for at least three days (and sub-q fluids we gave him day 1 after surgery and probably day 2). I wish I'd taken notes, but he sure wasn't bopping about until that incision was well on the way to healing, either. I had great respect for that incision after begging my vet to let me care for him the evening after surgery at home, and seeing it ooze as he struggled uncomfortably in his body wrap, which looked so tight I nearly lost my mind worrying. We completely blocked off the top floor of a big two-story cage, which I put next to my bed, so I could reach out and pet him once I popped up the top-opening lid. That's how I knew that, on day three, including surgery day, morning, he was crunching food, and I breathed a big sig of relief. He spent at least five days in my room though, I'd guess, though, again, I wish I'd taken notes. However, I had heard enough ferret-experienced vets mention how quickly ferrets bounce back from surgery that I was surprized at how long it really took for him. Perhaps that's bouncing back quickly in relation to other animals! I had never had a pet go through such surgery, and have very little experience with human surgery, so it was all a new, learning experience! I sure am happy with how the group has rallied in support of Beth, and it's an example of exacly what I had in mind when I first dreamed of such a group. Thanks guys! Lynn Mc. 5.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:51:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Ster2872@aol.com Subject: Who is bashing? I want to say in my defense that I dont think I was bashing Marshall Farms and I would thank you not to jump all over my case when you disagree with me. I was on a fact finding mission after incurring $3000 in vet bills due to bilateral adrenal problems. My vet told me that he sees a lot of Marshall farms ferrets with adrenal problems. I might add I have four ferrets three that didnt come from Marshall Farms and I have had no health problems with them. I have a friend who has seven two from Marshall Farms and five from else where and she has adrenal problems with both of hers. So while you may not have your conclusive study about the correlation between spaying age and adrenal problems I am living with a mighty expensive problem. I dont have a license on the truth here. But this is my experience. I welcome all opinions and I feel free to give mine. : And remember a little courtesy goes a long way. Thanks to those who wrote me Sterling 6.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: ROCHELLE@art.fss.buffalo.edu Subject: Prednisone After Adrenal Surgery I've seen a couple posts now that have made me wonder . . . I had thought it was fairly standard treatment to give pred following adrenal surgery and slowly wean them off of it. Yet several posts have talked about ferrets suddenly having blood sugar problems immed. post-surgery, or mentioning being put on pred a few days later, etc, making it seem as if those ferts were NOT being put on pred immediately. So the question is, WHY aren't they? My understanding of the situation is that one of the chemicals an overactive adrenal puts out is something akin to prednisolone. As we all know, pred is a common treatment for insulinoma, so an overactive adrenal will in some sense mask insulinoma symptoms. But if the ferret's pancreas is actually functioning normally, then its been getting all this excess pred for months (or however long). One of the wonderful things about the body is that it has the ability to self-regulate; so, the body adapts to this too-high pred level, and creates sufficient insulin to "counter" the pred. But when the diseased adrenal is removed, the level of pred in the system drops dramatically, and the body is suddenly producing way too much insulin (at the same time that the body is trying to recover from surgery). By giving the ferret pred for a few days, and slowly decreasing the levels, you let the body wean off the excess gradually, rather than going "cold turkey".... Now, I'm not a vet, and my explanation might be completely wrong... but I've ALWAYS given pred for the few days following adrenal surgery, and I thought everyone else did the same. Yet a few posts have started to make me wonder -- is this NOT common practice? Or is it something thats not been well-publicized enough? Or am I just reading something into posts that wasn't there, and everyone does know to give pred following adrenal removal? -Rochelle Newman 7.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:38:47 -0400 From: "Michael F. Janke" Subject: Reply to Reply: Post-op Post > on the way to healing, either. I had great respect for that incision > after begging my vet to let me care for him the evening after surgery at > home, and seeing it ooze as he struggled uncomfortably in his body wrap, > which looked so tight I nearly lost my mind worrying. Been through a few ferret surgeries and I never had one that was bandaged in any way afterwards. Ferrets seem pretty odd in that they never seem to lick or otherwise bother stitched up areas... unlike dogs who just can't seem to leave anything alone. Max was the first one I've seen stitched up with super glue! He had stitches on the inside, but the outer skin was glued together with surgical glue. No stitches at all. I was kinda worried that he would just pop open without stitches, but I've glued my fingers together more than once with super glue so I know it's pretty strong. He healed fast, and no stitches to remove, so it seems to be the way to go. Mike 8.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:22:40 +0000 From: Beth Subject: Beth's Reply: Post-op Post - Sully Lynn & the adrenal list, I can't thank you enough for your support. Only ferret people can truly understand how it feels to have an ill ferret in the house. My family can't believe the money it costs to take care of them but we don't have kids so why not! They're our family. Sully had subQ fluids again today although he was not as dehydrated as yesterday. His energy level looks better but he's still not eating. The vet sent us home with AD which he won't touch. He had a little mixed with water in an eye dropper. He woke us up last night at 3am pulling on his cage bars so we know he's got to be feeling better. Thanks again & thank you Lynn for starting this list at a time which was so crucial for us. We are very glad we did not delay surgery. Beth + Sully, Felix & Sarah --------------------------End of Ferret Digest #13----------------------