From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM To: mjanke@miamiferret.org Subject: (Fwd) Adrenal List #02 Forwarded message: From: Self To: @SENDLIST.PML Subject: Adrenal List #02 Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:44:08 This is a continuation of the List #1, grouping the messages that were posted to the Adrenal Group, then later regrouped into a digest format. Adrenal List #2, dated April 22, 1997 1. Oreo (biofile) 2. Reply re: Oreo 3. Nicodemus 4. Tippie 5. Hobie 6. Tippie 7. Drugs 8. Percy 1.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 17:59:00 PDT From: Pam Franklin To: Barbara Gustafson , Beth , Dixie Carter , Lorraine Tremblay , ferreton , Gabby , Lee McKee , lotaweasel , Ellen Jensen , Rochelle , Ster2872 , Dave and Pam Taynor , Troy Lynn Eckart Subject: Oreo (biofile) This is my first time putting together an address mailing group. I hope it reaches everyone! My name is Pam Franklin and you may have seen mt posts to the FML about my ferret Oreo. She is just over 5 years old and has had ongoing adrenal problems. It took two years to figure out that it was adrenal and not ovarian remnant. The first time she showed heat signs she was given deprovera which was a nightmare. Her body then thought she was pregnant and it was (no kidding) nine months before she was back to normal! She then went back into heat. This time (and a different vet) htg (or is it htc) was tried and it seemed to work until the next spring. Htg was tried again but did not work this time (why it worked before no one seems to know). She then had exploratory surgery to look for ovarian remant and to check her adrenals. Both adrenal glands were hemorrhagic so my vet removed them both. After recovery the heat signs went away and she was great. This was done last May. Then in August she showed heat signs again. The Tennessse test confirmed estradiol levels were up and an ultra sound was done showing either scar tissue or re-generated adrenal tissue. Surgery was done again and it was adrenal tissue on the vena cava so it was removed. Unfortunately the vena cava was nicked and Oreo almost didn't survive the surgery. But she did and recovered with flying colors! She is like the energizer bunny - she keeps going and going when she is well. That was December. In February she showed heat signs AGAIN!!! Yep, the Tennessee test confirms it. The tissue has re-generated again. My vet does not want to consider Lysodren. He (and she - I have two vets) say the success rate is poor and that it only effects cortizone producing cells not estrogen producing cells. Has anyone ever heard this? How do you tell your vet you don't think they know their stuff when I hear how well Lysodren has worked for ferrets on the FML? Troy Lynn, do you have any info that could help prove that the drug would be effective? At this point surgery is not really an option. That leaves chemo. This will involve putting a catheter button in her neck so quick access to the vein can be obtained. I have just found out that this will cost $500 - $700. Then she will need treatment once a month for six months and depending on what tests will be run at each treatment the cost will be anywhere from $30 - $150 per month! Now I am of the mind that if there is something that will improve the quality of my ferrets life and not will not make them suffer, then money is no object (that's what credit cards are for right?!). But I don't know how I feel about chemo. I've heard it doesn't make ferrets sick like it does people but it still sounds like a hard thing to go through. I just I had more options at this point. The final option is unthinkable. I'm sure you all know what it is like for a non-ferret person to say to you "Why don't you just put them down?". They just don't understand how much these little guys give to us. Anyway, I know this was suppose to be brief but I'm just starting to enter crisis mode with this latest problem. I have not had any success in getting responses from people who have had experience with ferrets and chemo from the FML For those of you just starting out with adreanl problems - keep positive. Oreo is the only ferret (except for one other) that I have heard of that still has problems after two surgeries. Any input anyone may have would be appreciated. On a side note - the back of Oreo's neck gets really pink sometimes too. I never made a connection with adrenal problems. I just assumed the others were chomping on her neck when they were in their cage. The more her "lower end" swells, the more attention she gets from the boys even thought they're fixed. Is this really related to the adrenals? 2.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:40:46 -0600 From: Troy Lynn Eckart Subject: Re: Reply re: Oreo Pam - I would give Lysodren a try. Talk with your vet and explain you would like to try Lysodren. It will have to be made up by a pharmacist. Your pharmacist will crush a tablet then mix with lactose or corn starch and can put each dose in individual capsules. I have had success with Lysodren and so has Mark Schaffer in Nebraska. Mark's ferret, Buddy, had his left adrenal removed and the right debulked. Symptoms returned so they started the Lysodren therapy and Buddy has been doing very well on it. Mark's address is: Mark I still believe that some who have not had success with Lysodren have not known to mix it with something that protects it from saliva (linatone or nutrical). This made all the difference in our case. Ferrets can live for some time without doing anything in adrenal cases so that is another option. Be firm with your vet. It is up to you to do what is best for your ferret. Vet's do not know everything and should be willing to abide by your wishes. It took many years for me to be able to TELL our vet what I wanted to do. Fortunately a few years ago we found a wonderful vet that is willing to work with us on whatever we want. In fact we are "testing" something on one of our ferrets that has lymphoma. If it works, which at this time it has improved her condition, we may be on to something. :-) Don't worry it is harmless, if it doesn't help her it won't hurt her. Anyway, there are many success stories with Lysodren and it seems Oreo may benefit for it. Hugs to all. tle 3.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 22 Apr 1997 16:30:12 -0000 From: dervish@scrye.com Subject: Re: Nicodemus Hello again Well after I said everything was cool with Nicodemus and the girls he had to prove me wrong last night by bothering his sisters when they were trying to get some shuteye. ::sigh:: He had his surgery almost two months ago now. During surgery his prostrate had a large sist which was drained of 3ml of fluid that varried from milky white to yellow to green. shortly before surgery he was sarting to have some discharge. It went away till we went off the antibiotics. then I noticed something exactly like this: > "Troy Lynn Eckart" He was still urinating but there was a small bit of milky white pus on his ummm... tummy. That's the stuff. Well we had it analysied and the tests came back E-Coli infection in his prostrate. We haven't had any UTI yet. The new antibiotics are helping. Seems E-Coli doesnt' respond to all antibiotics. After surgery he was still acting very Manly but it's been fading so this last weekend he moved back into the community cage till last night when he got put back in the single cage. I hope it's just some lingering hormones and not a regrowth. See, Nickodemus also had a right adrenal removed and also nearly 'died on the operating table as the vena cava was nicked. So I'm praying that it's not regrowing as I had to borrow from friend and beg relatives (who didn't understand) to get the money for the last surgery. :( Hugs to all your fuzzies. -Dixie Carter 4.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:40:17 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Tippie Hi Troy Lynn, Please explain what Lysodren is. Is your ferret male? I would like to know cause maybe it might help Tippie. Her hair also didn't grow back after surgery. She had a second exploratory surgery done about one month ago and there was no sign of adrenal on the right gland, yet she is still displaying these strange symptoms. ---------- > > Hi All > > Late last year Petey had his left adrenal removed. > > He's on Lysodren and starting to grow fur on the sides > > of his back legs. Our pharmacist mixes the lysodren with lactose > > and puts it in individual capsules. At first we did not get any > > results from the Lysodren then Suki mentioned that it needs to be > > given in something that isn't water based. I started mixing it with > > linatone and noticed a difference quickly. Petey gets his lysodren > > every 3rd day and takes it like a trooper. I missed one dose last > > week and he started having bladder problems but now that we are back > > on schedule he is doing well. 5.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:35:15 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Re: Hobie Pam, I too have a ferret who has had both glands removed. His name is Hobie, he was a late alter and didn't display any signs of adrenal till the age of seven. He had one gland removed then and the other removed at age ten and a half. (Yes Hobie is now eleven years old). At the time I was quite concerned as to how he would survive with no glands. He is on Florinef Acetate (I/4 tab every other day) and Prednisone (1/2 tab every other day), and seems to be doing well. He has other age related issues so we keep a pretty close eye on him. Can anyone give me any info on these medications? Such as side effects (he doesn't seem to have any) or what the long term effects of taking these drugs might be. Your other query about the back of Oreo's neck getting red spots. This is what happens to Tippie, plus she will often feel very warm to the touch. That plus her thinning hair and non stop scratching is what made me post my question to the FML. I also didn't think it was adrenal related but after hearing of others with similar problems I now think it could very well be. ---------- >Pam Franklin wrote on >Monday, April 21, 1997 6:59 PM > > Both adrenal glands were hemorrhagic so my vet removed them both. > > On a side note - the back of Oreo's neck gets really pink sometimes > > too. I never made a connection with adrenal problems. I just assumed > > the others were chomping on her neck when they were in their cage. The > > more her "lower end" swells, the more attention she gets from the boys > > even thought they're fixed. Is this really related to the adrenals? 6.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:05:08 -0600 From: Troy Lynn Eckart Subject: Re: Tippie Yes, Petey is male. When was Tippie's surgery? Sometimes they do not grow their fur back till the next "growing" season. If that is the only symptom and the exploratory didn't show a diseased adrenal and their are no other symptoms at this time, I'd keep a close eye on her. Sometimes if the surgery is done too soon the affected adrenal will not show and a later surgery may be warranted. If her vulva isn't swollen and she seems otherwise happy and healthy you may want to just keep an eye on her for awhile. As I understand it, Lysodren is a chemo drug and it is adrenal specific. Petey will be on it for the rest of his life as adrenals regenerate and what we are trying to do is regulate the growth so that the Lysodren kills off the diseased section. We wouldn't want to use Lysodren unless it is warranted. Hugs to all. tle 7.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 97 17:53:00 PDT From: Pam Franklin Subject: Re: Drugs! Barbara: Oreo is on flourinef and prednisone too. My vet gave me a short list of symptoms to look for if she gets too much or too little of the above. I keep it on my refrigerator at home and since I use my email at work I will bring it in tommorrow and send it out. I don't know what the long term effects are but would be very interested in learning them. I know that I have been on prednisone at various time and I hate the side effects. Besides an increased appetite I get very sore and swollen along my shoulders and on the back of my neck. My whole upper body gets sore to the touch and when I go off it my joints ache. It doesn't seem that Oreo sufferes from any of this but I have noticed a thickness to her neck and shoulders that my other three don't have. Has anyone else seen this with long term prednisone use? I have a male on prednisone for insulinoma and I don't see the same thickness on him. Incidently, does anyone have perfectly heathly ferrets? Out of my four, only one has had no health problems and I keep my fingers crossed that it will stay that way. Boy Lynn, you sure threw me with the lastest addition to the group, I was thinking "How can I be new? I've been on the group since it started. Oh I get it, now there are two of us!". Welcome to the group Pam (and Dave too!). Keep up the good reports coming about lysodren, I need all I can get to try to convince my vet to do that over chemo. Pam (and Oreo, Chubba Wubba, Big Foot and Fluffy) 8. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 19:04:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh To: Troy Lynn Eckart Cc: Adrenal Group Subject: Re: Percy Hi Troy Lynn. Thank you for answering my ?'s about Percy. > > Was the deprovera for the manly behavior? < > > This is probably the drug your vet is referring to. And yes it was. > It worked quite well. It also increases appetite which in Petey's > case was needed. This drug will do nothing for adrenal disease and > you will still have UTI's if they are adrenal related. I rely > heavily on the "manly" behavior to cue me in male adrenal problems. > In females it seems to be more aggressiveness. In both sexes I think > of it as MAJOR PMS. :-) Percy is a porker so let's hope if he goes on this drug it will not have this effect! I will let you know what it is when I hear back from the vet, who I e-mailed Monday. I'm very glad you pointed out that we'll still have to watch for UT's and this will be one key to ongoing probably adrenal issues. Now for some real news! I'm sure many of you have noticed how good ferrets are at learning from observation - such as how bad pooping habits spread like wildfire! We had Petey and his little girlfriend princess Mincie out in the backyard yesterday. Now Petey is a youngster and strappingly healthy... but he was trying to mate with Mincie, something he's never, ever done - he's a MF early neuter and a real sweet kid. He MUST have learned this from Percy! We got a big laugh which was some relief for our tension with ongoing questions over Percy! > > Percy isn't hairless at this point, just overly manly, with UT > > problems (plus the thinning neck/tummy hair and spotty orange neck). > > Sure sounds adrenal to me. Me too :( > > What sort of bladder problems did Petey have when you missed the Lysodren?> > > I caught it almost immediately. He was still urinating but there was > a small bit of milky white pus on his ummm... tummy. I check him in > that area daily and it wasn't there the day before. He did urinate > shortly after I checked him so he wasn't having a problem going. I haven't seen anything milky from Percy, just bright yellow urine. I wasn't sure if you were referring to a, uhm, manly excretion, or an infective discharge. Since you say it was a bladder problem I guess you're referring to infection, though I haven't seen this with Percy and he had blood (not visible to the eye) in his urine so a pretty nasty infection. > > Has the manly behavior gone away for Petey?< > > Yep, all gone. The Depo shot was probably the most helpful in this > area. But then you have to be watchful with the UTI's. Bud is our > boy now that is showing "manly" behavior. He has a full beautiful > coat though. I'm checking him daily too. It's interesting, baffling perhaps, too. Percy's coat came back but the manly behavior got worse. I suppose it could be chalked up to the variety of errant hormones?... > I wonder if some of the controversy about Lysodren working is because > it is not mixed properly, such as with water based liquids. At > first I used our recipe, which is water/pedialyte based, and saw > little results but as soon as I started using it with the linatone I > saw major improvement. Some mix it with Nutrical with good results. This is interesting, but I thought Lysodren was simply less infective or ineffective if not mixed properly. My vet doesn't use it because, he says, of unexplored longterm effects of the toxicity of the drug. Though I'm wondering if he has an idea of how many ferrets are currently being treated with it, and that's something it just occured to me to ask him. > Out of the 7, 2 have passed on. Ferry (6 yrs old) died in her sleep > several months after her surgery. Surgery went well but she was > never the same. She had a weak constitution and I think the surgery > took it's toll. Clyde II was laid to rest on Sunday April 13 after > 24 hours in a hypoclycemic coma. I did everything I could but > couldn't bring him around, he was 6+ years old. Surgery isn't for every furry but we try our best and it sometimes doesn't turn out - so sorry about Ferry; I've heard she was a sweety. I recall a 3rd year vet student announcing a study she was considering on the potential relationship between adrenal disease and pancreatic tumores (insulinoma). She was also looking for someone to correspond with who had ferrets or a ferret that had gone through a bi-adrenalectomy. She might be interested in the group and a good source of info, as an upcoming vet and ferret owner. Anyone still have her addres?. I may have it and will look. > > It is very possible our severe bout of ECE contributed to their demise > by weaking their immune systems so... > I hope the effects of ECE are loosing their grips on your furkids, Troy Lynn. Percy's plight began during our bout of probably ECE. Could have been a coincidence but one can't be sure. Take Care and Thanks, as usual :), for helping Troy Lynn. Lynn Mc. > Hugs to all. tle -------------------------End of Adrenal List #2-------------------------