From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM To: mjanke@miamiferret.org Subject: (Fwd) Adrenal List #23 Forwarded message: From: Self To: @SENDLIST.PML Subject: Adrenal List #23 Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:52:20 Adrenal List #23, dated July 3, 1997 1. Reply: Moxie; Big Foot's Surgery Day 2. Strong prayers for Big Foot 3. Reply: Strong prayers for Big Foot 4. Big Foot's Surgery 5. Big Foot; Flash & Azium 6. Lysodren and Insulinoma 7. The Adrenal Group List 8. Adrenal Survey - Replies? 9. Strong prayers for Bigfoot 10. Mixed results adrenal/insulinoma surgery 11. Strong prayers for Bigfoot 12. Adrenal & Insulinomic 13. How is Big Foot? 14. Big Foot's Surgery Went Well 15. Azium Info Please 16. Big Foot; Insulinoma 17. Big Foot 18. Meds for Bruising Post-Surgery 1.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:32:45 -0700 From: pfranklin@panlabs.com Subject: Big Foot's Surgery; Flash Dear Joanne (or is it Moxie?, I have a six year old male MF ferret, Big Foot who is going in for surgery tomorrow morning (everyone please keep him in your thoughts and prayers). He has insulinoma, an enlarged spleen and suspected adrenal disease since most of his fur is gone and he has become aggressive. His surgery is mainly for removal of what pancreatic (sp?) tumors can be found but my vet will also check and remove any adrenal tumors or bad tissue if it is present. She is also going to remove his spleen since it is large enough to make a significant weight difference in him. I do know that they will be closely monitoring him during surgery regarding his insulinoma and have a iv going to help prevent seizures. I will let you (and the group) know how it goes and how he does afterwards. My decision to go ahead with the surgery is because all of his problems are at the point where something has to be done and I would rather give him some time to feel good again before his insulinoma leaves me no choice. I am a little nervous though about the surgery, it is going to be pretty extensive compared to "just" the adrenal surgery that my other ferret Oreo has gone through. I am curious about what Azium is, my vet has never mentioned it to me. Big Foot is currently on prednisone and after the surgery he will also be on proglycin (which is an insulin blocking agent). Could you give me any info you have on Azium? If you suspect adrenal disease, please have the Tennessee panel done. Adrenal disease is eventually fatal if nothing is done about it. Surgery would be about the only thing for Flash since Lysodren can't be given to ferrets with insulinoma (in fact, insulinoma can be one of the side effects of the drug). I hope Flash is doing well despite his medical problems!(It's amazing how these guys can keep on going!) Pam Franklin 2.------------Forwarded Message-------------------- To: Adrenal Group From: Lynn McIntosh Subject: Strong prayers for Big Foot Pam. I was up late mulling and mulling, and just got this. I hope I get it out in time. Big Foot will be in my mind and heart all morning. I've had the honor to meet Big Foot and he is one, wonderful fuzzy. A real love. I will be pulling for you Big Foot, and hang in their mom. Lynn 3.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:22:53 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Re: Strong prayers for Big Foot Pam, Just want to wish you and Big Foot the best of luck with Big Foot's surgery. I'll be thinking of him. Let us know how thing turn out. Barb Gustafson (aka Boots) 4.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:02:25 -0700 From: pfranklin@panlabs.com Subject: Big Foot's surgery Big Foot's surgery is going to be tomorrow (Wednesday). I'm not sure what time, I have to drop him off between 8:00 and 8:30 am. I think they will do it around noon. I will know the exact time after I drop him off because Dr. Bishop wants me to be by the phone incase they need to call me during the surgery (she is going to let me know how his adrenals look so I can give the okay to remove them if needed). I am more worried about his surgery than I was for Oreo's. Oreo can take me or leave me as long as she gets attention from someone else! Big Foot on the other hand is a momma's boy and he is having a more extensive surgery done. I will let you and everyone know how he does tomorrow as soon as it's done. Continuing to keep you in my thoughts. Pam 5.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:16:05 -0400 From: Joanne Gelormino Subject: Big Foot; Flash & Azium Dear Pam, I wish you the best of luck with Big Foot's surgery. Sounds very similar to my Flash. You inquired about Azium. It works quicker than prednisone but may not be as tolerant of delays. Dosage is one drop up to three drops twice a day -- every 12 hours. My vet mixes liquid azium in distilled water (2 mg to 10 cc of water). I am hesitant to proceed with surgery at this time for Flash, as he is eating well and responding to the azium. My ferrets have not lived past 6.5 years of age. If he was uncomfortable I would consider it. I will be very interested in how your ferret does. Thanks for responding to my post. Joanne aka Moxie 6.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:01:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh Subject: Lysodren and Insulinoma > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:32:45 -0700 > From: pfranklin@panlabs.com > > Dear Joanne (or is it Moxie?, > > If you suspect adrenal disease, please have the Tennessee panel done. > Adrenal disease is eventually fatal if nothing is done about it. Surgery > would be about the only thing for Flash since Lysodren can't be given to > ferrets with insulinoma (in fact, insulinoma can be one of the side effects > of the drug). > > I hope Flash is doing well despite his medical problems!(It's amazing how > these guys can keep on going!) > > Pam Franklin Hi Pam and Joanne. Percy's vets (he was helped by Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM, whose had postings on this list) are having select tests done by U.Tenn. Percy was going to be tested for estrogen and testosterone levels. Makes it a little more affordable. His vets are now recommending treating with Lysodren first, surgery if it doesn't work! for adrenal disease. They recommend a higher dose of Lysodren, but "pulsed" doses, with some days off to allow the body to clean out necropsied adrenal tissue. They say that dogs have been treated for adrenal disease for quite some time with Lysodren first, and surgery as the last option. She used this with Robbie, who lived three years, furry and hoppy. I think Cathy Johnson-Delaney's treatment protocol for Robbie (insulinoma and adrenal disease) is written in a previous Adrenal List. I can find it for you Joanne. She had to really monitor the insulinoma while Robbie was on Lysodren (mitotane). He passed away while she was out of the country, at 7 1/2 years. She had a full necropsy done (by a noted pathologist whom she told nothing about Robbie), and found that the adrenal tumor and formerly enlarged prostate were shrunken, and that Robbie had died from a large insulinoma tumor and was showing some heart problems typical of old age. No sign of toxicity from the Lysodren. I wonder what studies have been done on dogs longterm on Lysodren. I'm still sort of scared of it, but when I ponder the Adrenal Biofiles, I see surgery after surgery with symptoms returning - why I started the list. It's sure another something to think about. Anyone up for digging up studies of dogs longterm on Lysodren? Must be plenty. Gary, you sent great info on MedLine, which I have to review. I've taken a course on using MedLine. I'll ask Cathy J-D, too. She's probably more than pondered this. And Gary, I'm so glad we have you working on the forefront of herbal treatments. So many of you wrote about Percy. Thank you, thank you, thank you. How I'd give the world for one of his big, long, sloppy kisses right now. I will write about the medical history, but I need to work on his eulogy. The service will be this evening. Fuzzy hugs always, Lynn 7.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh Subject: The Adrenal Group List Percy's loss has strengthened my commitment to this group. Time for the new computer and new server, so I can promote the group, for Percy, for Cathy's Robbie, for all our fuzzies. I've been slack of late. Some of you sent biofiles that haven't been put into the Biofile List. But they are here. When I get it updated I'll send the update. In the meantime send those biofiles in if you're so inclined. It was so helpful to read through them while Percy was ill. When I get a chance, Percy's vets will get copies. Some hopes for the group. Continue to work on Barbara's summary of our information. Look into Alicia's survey results (I could start by answering it myself!), and I believe Amy has done a survey too. Do more surveys here. I've added a few members of late - welcome! Get vets copies of our summarized info. Etc., etc.! We'll beat this disease yet!!!! First step: The new pooter and server. I'm taking a mental-health comp-time day, much needed. It may be time to go back to list format for awhile. If people have opinions on this please comment. I welcome any and all opinions on how this list runs. Hugs to all our adrenal fuzzies, always... Lynn 8.---------- Forwarded message --------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:34:07 -0400 (EDT) From: ferretwise@top.monad.net Subject: Adrenal Survey - Replies? Adrenal survey - to date I have only received 2 from the adrenal; group and five otherwise-- not enough to start a very credible database-- please reconsider emailing back the adrenal survey reply forwarded earlier. Thanks Alicia 9.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:13:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Ferretlesa@aol.com Subject: Re: Strong prayers for Bigfoot Good Luck Pam!!! Big Foot, I am keeping noses and toeses crossed for you!!! Lisa 10.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Ferretlesa@aol.com Subject: Mixed results adrenal/insulinoma surgery Hi everyone! I have had mixed results from adrenal/insulinoma surgery. My first, Wolf, was almost nine when he had his second insulinoma first adrenal surgery and came thru pretty well. He died of old age/insulinoma at 10 1/2 on Feb 3, 1995.(Just for records MF male, sable) Shadow was a rescue with previous adrenal surgery at approx 4 1/2 years. Underwent surgery for insulinoma after recovering from ECE and jaundice (about 6 months prior to surgery). Died as a result - Vet determined she had a reaction to the anesthetic. (MF, female, about 6) My next case was an advanced adrenal insulinoma case, Hope, was approximately 7 when had her only surgery for both. Did not do well, almost lost on table, had to nurse her back to health for three weeks, force feedings (I actually took her to work and fed her while there) etc. She did pull thru, but age/mistreatment/lack of treatment she quickly went downhill and Hope died less than a year after rescuing at about 7-8 years on Sept 13, 1996. (Hope was MF, Female, chocolate) My last mix of adrenal/insulinoma/spleen was Bandit, about 4 when symptoms of insulinoma appeared. She had an enlarged spleen since I knew her (age approx 2). No surgery for the enlarged spleen. 6 - 8 months later Bandit began exhibiting signs of adrenals. Decision to do surgery - pancreas crumbled in the doc's hand, removed left adrenal and spleen. Bandit died from complications of surgery three days later. (Bandit was MF, female, about 5 1/2) I can't say that I dont recommend surgery, but I will say this: Adrenals can be "cured" if caught early enough -- insulinoma can not. If you are thinking of surgery, don't worry about spleen (unless a mass is on it or it is obviously cancerous), worry about adrenals first, insulinomas second, spleen last. The vets that I have asked about an enlarged spleen have said it is fairly normal in ferrets, and not to worry unless a mass is on it or obviously cancerous. I am very cautious about surgery for insulinoma, because ferrets seem to "contract" it very late in life, and I am not so willing to put a ferret thru this kind of painful surgery, just so that I can selfishly gain more time with them. I will almost always do adrenal surgery, since it seems to strike when a ferret is middle aged and better capable of surviving the surgery, and the fact that it may not recur. I always take into consideration that a double surgery like adrenal/insulinoma may result in ferret being under anesthetic for up to three hours if it is a difficult surgery, and that is hard on the ferret. Anyway, just my .02 worth (Hey Bob, you can always build cages for me!! Maybe customize them to fit in the condo ;-} ) Lisa 11.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:22:53 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Re: Strong prayers for Bigfoot Pam, Just want to wish you and Big Foot the best of luck with Big Foot's surgery. I'll be thinking of him. Let us know how thing turn out. Barb Gustafson (aka Boots) 12.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:56:15 -0400 From: "Mary L. McCarty" Subject: Re: Adrenal & Insulinomic >Subject: Mixed results adrenal/insulinoma surgery >I can't say that I dont recommend surgery, but I will say this: Adrenals can >be "cured" if caught early enough -- insulinoma can not. If you are thinking >of surgery, don't worry about spleen (unless a mass is on it or it is >obviously cancerous), worry about adrenals first, insulinomas second, spleen >last. The vets that I have asked about an enlarged spleen have said it is >fairly normal in ferrets, and not to worry unless a mass is on it or Exactly. Bear had an enlarged spleen (which we removed during adrenal operation) and it turned out to be nothing but a big spleen. >obviously cancerous. I am very cautious about surgery for insulinoma, >because ferrets seem to "contract" it very late in life, and I am not so >willing to put a ferret thru this kind of painful surgery, just so that I can >selfishly gain more time with them. I will almost always do adrenal surgery, >since it seems to strike when a ferret is middle aged and better capable of >surviving the surgery, and the fact that it may not recur. I always take into >consideration that a double surgery like adrenal/insulinoma may result in >ferret being under anesthetic for up to three hours if it is a difficult >surgery, and that is hard on the ferret. Bear (MF male, sable), just went through adrenal surgery . We didn't operate in time and he died from complications a few days later. His cagemate, Maggie (breeder unknown - male, sable), is a possible adrenal, possible insulinoma. We are going to test for adrenal to be sure before we do any surgery. My vet, who is great with adrenals but not so knowledgable about insulinoma, says that surgery is not necessary for insulinoma. She said that she has read that it can be controlled through diet, etc. I do not want to put Maggie thru unnecessary surgery, what are your opinions? I have read the FAQ sheets on adrenals and insulinoma, but would love to have some real experiences to go on. If Maggie does have adrenal problems, we will probably do surgery to remove that and the insulinoma tumors (?) from the pancreas (or is it kidney? Thank goodness I am not a vet, I am horrible at biology). If there is not an adrenal problem, I had originally thought to forget surgery and just keep him on pred (seems to be doing a great job right now) and try an insulinoma elixir someone listed on the FML. Any ideas? I would appreciate any experiences you could share with me. Thanks! Mary ;-) ************************ The Fuzzy Buttheads.... Fatso (Podo) - "Play? (Yawn) Who wants to play? I want to go back to sleep." Skinny (Odo) - "I'll play with the brat...I mean Sweet Pea. Come here, little girl....." Maggie - "I'll teach that little whippersnapper who's boss!" Sweet Pea - "I want to play, play, play! 24 hours a day!" In remembrance of Bear, gone to the Rainbow Bridge on June 28 1997, you are sorely missed by all your fuzzy (and not so fuzzy) friends...... 13.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh To: Pam Franklin Subject: How is Big Foot? Hi Pam. Is our Big Foot okay? There have been so many losses lately, I'm afraid to ask. If you can't write right now, that's okay. Just know that I'm thinking about you, and the fur kids. Lynn 14.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:58:11 -0700 From: pfranklin@panlabs.com Subject: Big Foot's Surgery Went Well Big Foot had his surgery yesterday and everything went okay. He is showing a lot of bruising and having some sepage of his incision which concerns my vet. Evidently this may mean he is not clotting very well, but when they do a blood count everything looks normal and he is a good pink color. I seem to remember something on the FML about dark eyed whites and blood problems. Does anyone recall this? I will be searching the archives this weekend to see if I can find it. I will probably be able to take him home today, I will know for sure later this afternoon. There was only one tumor on his pancreas and it was the size of a pea. My vet could see no other tumors or discolorations so there is a small slight chance no more will grow! She even thinks that we can wean him of the prednisone! His right adrenal was okay! His left adrenal was bad (4 times normal size and discolored) and it was removed. His spleen was huge and discolored and had a lot of nodules on it. It was a good thing she had planned on removing it since she feels it would have started to cause him serious problems soon. I am very glad I decided to have the surgery done. As it turned out everything we went after needed going after and once he heals from the surgery, he should feel like a young kit again! I want to thank everyone for all their notes and thoughts. I will keep you posted as to how his recovery goes. 15.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:43:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Amy Cada Subject: Azium info please I had read a few people's accounts of using Azium (I believe that is what it was) for insulinoma. Being stupid, I deleted those posts. I've lost two of my four ferrets in the past month and thought that the run was over. Last night Hobbes, who had adrenal surgery last fall, had an insulinomic attack; I checked his blood sugar as he was coming OUT of it and it was only 55!! He was on pred earlier to control colitis from a mystery virus my guys contracted last year (not ECE) but could not tolerate it well so I cannot use that to boost his blood sugar levels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Amy M.E. Cada amycada@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu Behavioral Neuroscience, UT Austin Asta- 2/3 NA agility, tennis ball, flyball, and bath addict scottie; Wylie-court jester wire fox; Gryphon, toothbrush loving scottie Their 3 geriatric ferret friends, and Zowie ferret @ the RB ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 16.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:17:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh Subject: Big Foot; Insulinoma Hi. Pam. I'm so glad to hear about Big Foot's successful surgery. It's sounds like they got so much done with this one operation. We took Percy :(.... home after his exploratory and that evening his incision was seeping. It was very frightening to me, but the doctor said not to worry as long as it was minimal - very frightening, though, for us. Boy I miss that little guy, and it's so hard to write about him in past tense. I was wondering how Big Foot did and called the clinic, though I knew they couldn't tell me much. But they said he was okay! I thought of calling you at work but, in case the news wasn't good (and I'm understandidly a bit skittish right now), I decided not to. Way to go Big Foot! I'm thinking healing thoughts. Also, I forwarded the azium messages to Amy. I think insulinoma would be a good thing to discuss on this group, because it so often goes hand in hand with adrenal problems, and some drug therapy in a duo-diagnosed animal isn't real compatible. What do people think? I won't promote the group much until I get on another server, but I will be ordering that new computer Monday or Tuesday (a Gateway), so it shouldn't be too long. Happy 4th to all (a good time to keep a close eye on all our furry babies). Lynn 17.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:33:39 -0600 From: Barbara Gustafson Subject: Re: Big Foot So glad to hear that Bigfoot made it through surgery OK. Give him a hug and kiss from Hobie, Boots, Tippie and me Barb Gustafson (aka Boots) 18.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:24:11 -0400 (EDT) From: ferretwise@top.monad.net Subject: Meds for Bruising Post-Surgery Fro bruising -- we use arnica montana 30x one tablet every four hours for the first 36 hours following surgery. Reduces swelling, bruising and seems to help the ferrets heal quickly! Can be found in many helth food stores -- get the sugar tablets, not the alcohol based solution! To administer: Place a tablet in an empty syringe-- tap it out of the bottle-- do not handle it -- and draw up some spring water-- shake to disolve and administer orally-- or crush a tablet on a piece of paper , fold the paper and pour the powder so it falls into the ferrets mouth & gum areas.. For future reference file this one away.... Good recovery Bigfoot! Alicia, a shelter Mom -----------------------End of Ferret List #23-----------------------