From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM To: mjanke@miamiferret.org Subject: (Fwd) Adrenal List #30 Forwarded message: From: Self To: @SENDLIST.PML Subject: Adrenal List #30 Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:53:40 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh To: Adrenal Group -- Amy Cada , AndresenK@aol.com, beek@feist.com, Beth , boots@icrossroads.com, "Brian L. Schmidt" , Cat13Dog5@aol.com, dadams@dzn.com, Dave and Pam Taynor , Dixie Carter , Ela_Heyn@notes.pw.com, Ellen Jensen , ferreton@pond.com, ferretwise@top.monad.net, Gabby , Gary Holowicki , Helen Andersson , Jan3GDFA@aol.com, Jason & Alison Overstreet , Jennifer Skeem , Jennifer_Morlanne@email.fpl.com, Jim Dunn , Joanne Gelormino , "Karen Purcell, DVM" , karen wisniewski , Lee McKee , Lisaferets@aol.com, Lorraine Tremblay , lotaweasel , Margaret Lehman , "Mary L. McCarty" , "Michael F. Janke" , Pam Franklin , Pam Franklin , Patricia Curtis , ROCHELLE@art.fss.buffalo.edu, sterling , TMccabe453@aol.com, Troy Lynn Eckart , Tryntje Miller Subject: Adrenal List #30 Hi. Sterling has opened a discussion on an Adrenal Fund. My first reaction was fear - yikes, we'd all start fighting over money! But my second thought was that it's a very nice idea. Anyone have any thoughts, opinions, comments? Sterling, thanks for bringing this up, and also for the offer on archiving, too. I should have more internet power soon for this - know I need a search engine like the FML has. Send me details of suggestions, though! Thanks. Keep the success stories coming. All our welcome and good news, though would be nice to see some more recoveries exceeding a year! Glad to hear Kelsey's well! Dr. Delaney-Johnson wrote me about Lupron and misc. things. She's very busy and I can tell she's rushing about trying to get a million things done before leaving for Australia Aug. 10 (the list of things she mentioned was staggering!) So I was happy she took the time to dash of a letter. (Boy, I sure use a lot of !'s; maybe they keep me awake at 1:30 am - sheesh.) I can get more info when Cathy, Dr. J.-D., returns form Australia Sept. 10. Dave. I've been thinking about Bobo and hope he's getting better. Lynn Mc. 1. Adrenal Fund 2. E-Coli 3. Dr. McCabe 4. Adrenal List #29 - Success Story 5. Kelsey Update 6. C. Johnson-Delaney - Misc. 7. FML Post: Adrenal: L-deprenyl HCl/Anipryl; Percy and Urinary Blockage 1.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:49:20 +-1200 From: Sterling Killian Subject: adrenal fund Since I suggested this I would be happy to deal with all donations and distributions of the adrenal fund but I would like to have a committee on this so we could decide in a fair way how to distribute funds etc. etc. If you guys want me to do this I can open us a savings account. I would also be glad to help anyone else do this if they would like to name themselves chair of this fund. I havent gotten a lot of feed back on this, I know you are all busy with sick kids but when you get a few minutes let me know what you think. Also I was thinking we could really use an archival library.....Lynn I hear tell you are working on this....let me know if you need help...... 2.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:59:02 -0600 From: Troy Lynn Eckart Subject: E-Coli For E-Coli overgrowth (E-Coli is a natural bacteria within us) we add natural flora to the diet in forms of Probiotics and Buttermilk (or yogurt, cottage cheese, etc) to help replace the natural order of the good bacteria. The buttermilk and probiotics are added to our recipe: 2 cans SD A/D 64 oz boiled water 1 tablespoon brewers yeast 1 tablespoon electrolyte powder 3 grinders full of Iams kitten (I'm not sure how much the grinder holds but it is the standard size - I'll measure next time I make recipe - this also depends on how thick/thin your ferret likes the recipe) 1 B-Complex tablet (ground with food) 1 teaspoon bone meal 1 Chamomile capsule contents 1 cup buttermilk 1 cup fresh pastuerized goats milk 1 cup Gerber baby oatmeal cereal Mix with blender. Serve in 1-2 ounce servings. Refrigerate remainder in sealed container and heat individual servings in microwave (don't heat in serving dish), stir with finger to check for hot spots. This amount for us makes 3 32oz feedings. If they really like the recipe I have to watch them closely as they are free fed. Petey will eat till his tummy is so big. He loves it. He hasn't grown back any more fur (back by tail is bald) but he is fat and happy. Also this recipe sticks to their ribs and stays with them for a long time so monitored feedings are best. We still want them to eat their regular food(s). Hugs to all. tle 3.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:53:18 -0600 From: dave adams Subject: Re: Dr McCabe I would like to apologize for getting Dr. McCabe's name wrong. It is something I tend to do a lot even though I have his card right in front of me. He does lurk on the list as he knows of our work. I try to help him keep up with the list as much as I can since he has done the work on all but one of my adrenal ferrets which now makes it six. Thanks Dave Adams + 16fbs 4.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:23:50 +0000 From: "Jennifer L. Skeem" Subject: Re: Adrenal List #29 - Success Story Hi, Lynn! We have a success story (so far) to add to the list. Our 3 year old ferret, Zoe, had her left adrenal removed 5 months ago. Although it was difficult to get her to eat for the first 2-3 weeks, she quickly returned to her old self after about 1 month. Her fur has filled in nicely and she actually looks healthier now than she ever has (thanks to the extra calories provided by her duck soup treats). Its been nice to hear about some positive outcomes lately--We thought we'd add ours to the repertoire. Jennifer, Bonnier & Zoe 5.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:42:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AndresenK@aol.com Subject: Kelsey update Hello to all Kelsey is doing well - we are so happy !!! He is more alert now and has more bounce to his step. He is eating alot again and no problems at the poopin end. YAHOO !!!!!!! All his brothers and sister sure are glad that he is now sleeping in the cage with them again - They have their pillow back . Sleeping just wasn't the same for them when he was not there. OK - here are some well wishes to our fellow fuzzies in need We sure hope they all recover real soon !!!! Bobo,Ludwig,Faith - glad to hear things are going well keep up the great work and we pray for your full recovery. Zuni - Sure hope you are home now and doing well. We are praying for you Nickodermus - Congrats on beating that nasty adrenal thingy - now get rid of that e-coli stuff - You are in our prayers To all those fuzzies out there who are well - you are in our prayers to stay healthy And for those that are facing a challenge right now - your are in our prayers for a complete recovery. Thanx to all that sent well wishes and prayers for Kelsey. About the suggestion for a " Adrenal Fund " or Auction - sounds like a great idea ---- Count me in !! Take care all Stay Healthy and Happy God Bless Sincerely Katherine and the 9K's Kira,Kloee,Kory,Koko,Kandi,Kasey,Kelsey,Kaila, Kiku 6.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:34:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Catheter Size! Cathy Johnson-Delaney Dear Lynn and fuzzies: <> I think the message we can pass on to all ferret owner's that we learned from Percy: any symptoms at all need attention. Ferret's hide how serious things can be, because they really don't complain about things. Good to hear Claudette's skin thing was a wound. Wally: I'm concerned about the splenic enlargement. Rule out is lymphoma. Spleens usually aren't enlarged with adrenal disease. How is his heart doing? Cardiac disease can also give you that barrel chest and poor furring. Is he exercise intolerant? What is his CBC and lymphocyte count? I'd start there, and with a radiograph - check out heart. You can reprint whatever (I write to you) - just please let folks know that I cannot return phone calls or do much consultation work without vet data. It's not that I don't want to, but I do not have time at the U (my 11 hour days are spent running as is), and most of the time I would need to speak with their veterinarian. Their veterinarian can fax me with the Phys exam, blood work, etc and I try to get back to the DVMs in a timely manner, but it just is physically impossible to some days. I put these same constraints on the hedgehog society and the Simian Society: I cannot return private owner phone calls, faxes, and I can't tell them much via email: have their veterinarian contact me with the workup information. I think there is something to the pituitary-adrenal feedback loop and why it gets turned on, then the adrenal gets "super stimulated" and hyperplastic, and eventually neoplastic. Dr. Judith Bell is now theorizing that this pituitary "turn-on" or over stimulation (the pineal gland is also involved) may have something to do with light cycle: ferrets evolved fairly nocturnal, and from northern latitudes: we give them 16 hour plus light cycles all year. She is proposing testing light amounts and measurements of melatonin, and looking into keeping your ferrets on 8 hour light cycles etc. She may be on to something. We have this problem in birds: they go into constant laying. We have to regulate light exposure. Maybe ferrets need to too, but it's going to be very difficult given human hours and the companion aspect. If the pituitary is busy churning out the hormones that in turn cause the adrenal to think it's breeding season and the gonads aren't working right (which they're not, cuz they're gone!), then the adrenal picks up the slack to tell the brain, pituitary that the reproductive tract is gearing up....you can kind of see the progression: ferrets are seasonal reproductive animals, and are shut off by 1. breeding and copulation- ovulation, pregnancy, end of season; 2. males, end of season (light cycle) and females are pregnant so that stimulation is turned off. Any tissue which is constantly stimulated over a long period goes hyperplastic, and the more cell cycles and stimualtion, the greater the chance for neoplasia. Particularly with secreting tissue, i.e. endocrine tissue. This is why I think Lupron is important in this: it interrupts that stimulation cycle. I think that is why some folks thought about "birth control" medications: however, most birth control medications interrupt the cycle by supplying an end-stage hormone i.e. the hormone of pregnancy progesterone so that the pituitary thinks it's pregnant and quits trying for more breeding! That's too late, and adds the complication of all the metabolic consequences of progesterone. The Lupron hits before the signals reach the sex steroid secreting tissue: it sends the message to back down on the reproductive steroidogenesis. Metabolically, this is probably the key. Couple that with killing off the tissue that could respond, and you stop the adrenal neoplasia and its consequences. These are my theories, but I'm going to follow through with Dr. Bell when I get back from Australia. (She deemed me a fellow ferret fanatic, and in my copy of her book, went through the whole thing and put names to all the ferrets in the pictures - they're all hers...I also got the story behind most of them...) For your list, web wanderings: I do have some ferret photos scanned and turned into .bmp files. I could illustrate Robbie's course. Get the Gateway... As to the evaluation for adrenal disease: I start always with the physical and history. I like to do CBC , chemistry and urinalysis. If I'm suspecting, I do the estradiol level. I'm not sure if testosterone is as much of a problem. I like to do a scout radiograph (helps me assess heart, kidneys, bladder and in males, prostate). I do a deep palpation, sometimes I can pick up an enlarged mass. If spleen is enlarged without anesthetic, we start down a slightly different path. I don't usually proceed to ultrasound and/or surgery til I get the estradiol back. If ultrasound shows an enlargement, I know which to target in surgery. If not given that option, I go in. I measure the glands. Even if they seem "normal" size, which I'm not sure of at all any more, I will take safe sections for histopath. I recommend a knowledgeable ferret pathologist. Out here we are lucky to have Dr. Mike Garner of NOrthwest ZooPath. Or we send to Drs Bob Schmidt/Drury REavill in Calif. Mike is in Snohomish and works partly out of a lab 2 miles from my home - I've known him for a long time and he has extensive zoo/exotic training = I trust him implicitly with my critters biopsies/necropsies. If you have elevated estradiol, somewhere, something is going wrong. If the biopsy comes back normal adrenal, and you do have elevated sex steroids, I think I'd opt for the Lupron to begin with and hold on the mitotane. Monitor bloodwork and symptoms. There may be extraadrenal tissue hiding somewhere in the abdomen. Robbie had an extra 1/2 cm wedge of spleen in a piece of mesentery. Had anyone done a splenectomy, a chunk of spleen would have been left, that was active. The classic model of this is in primates (humans) with endometriosis. There can be endometrial tissue a lot of places in the abdomen other than the lining of the uterus. A hysterectomy may not stop the problem. That is what Lupron was first designed for. It blocks the pituitary stimulation of all that endometrial tissue and of the ovaries that can't be found/removed.... AS to the spots....I'd look seriously at nutritional things like zinc, lysine, etc. She doesn't mention diet. I'd lay off ferretone, as the oils can go rancid and get you into a vit E def etc.. I'd also look at the genetics - it's possible this is a "mixed" breed ferret and the pigment changes are normal. It also may be all you see as the result of "hives" - contact dermatitis is not unheard of, and I've seen this sort of thing in a lot of animals who are allergic to things like detergents, fabric softeners, carpet fibers, synthetic materials, etc. etc. Well, I better quit. Hope you life has simmered down, and everybody stays well. I could see Wally on the Sat before I leave (Aug 9), but unfortunately I'm on-duty all Sats before then. Let me/Dr. Kamaka know. Live Long & Prosper! Cathy 7.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:53:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn Mcintosh To: FML-Post Subject: Adrenal: L-deprenyl HCl/Anipryl; Percy and Urinary Blockage On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Automatic digest processor wrote: > Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:11:29 -0500 > From: Bob Church > Subject: Bob C: Alive!; Selegiline Question; Adoption Hi again Bob! > Here is a question about something I don't know about (While unlikely, it is > possible from time to time). I was asked about the use of Selegiline > (L-deprenyl HCl/Anipryl) in ferrets to combat adrenal tumors. I've heard of > it being used in certain human nervous system disorders, but never with > ferrets or with adrenal disease. Anyone have any knowledge or experience, > including dosages? Please, anyone with experience speak up! This just came up on our Adrenal List, and we need information. One of my vets is recommending Lupron as a drug to interrupt the pituitary-adrenal-pineary feedback loop that stimulates adrenal tissue into hyperplasia and neoplasia. She's had success with it. I haven't had a chance to ask her about L-deprenyl. Also, if your male ferret is showing any signs of having urinary problems and is suspected or confirmed of adrenal problems, treat for adrenal and check into Lupron (which should help decrease the enlarged prostate). Once they block up due to prostate enlargement and ensuing urinary tract infections that create mucous and crystals, it's difficult to bring them back - catheterization is very difficult, and other problems, some fatal, can arise. Ferrets mask symtoms.. Urinary infections can be checked on with a dipstick test a couple days a week (ask a vet), which I didn't know at the time. Percy blocked up and we lost him; he'd been treated for urinary tract infections, and we couldn't see any blood in his urine, (like my cat's gotten with UA infections) so we thought his treatment could wait a couple weeks. He was playful, but was dripping and urinating often. Seven months prior an adrenal exploratory showed normal adrenals, with some hyperplasia; a bit of the right was removed and his hair grew back but, obviously, his disease progressed. Mary McCarty lost Bear in June to a urinary tract blockage. But it looks like our Adrenal List's Bobo is going to make it, after a difficult struggle! They can go on dripping and urinating often for some time, but block immediately. Don't wait!!!! One of my vets used Lupron (with Lysodren) for her pet adrenal-diseased ferret and the urinary blockage (his prostate was very enlarged) completely cleared up. He was bouncy and quite furry on these drugs for three years, and she monitored him closely for his insulinoma. When he passed away a thorough necropsy showed the prostate very small and the adrenal tumor shrunken. It was a pancreatic tumor that killed him, and some signs of heart problems related to his aging (7.5 years old). For info on the Adrenal List, write me. Bob C. I hope Sandy soars through her surgery and has a successful recovery. You're a great ferret dad and Elizabeth a great ferret mom. > She is *so* very sweet, and licks the inside of my elbow for extended > periods of time, with only the gentlest ocassional chomp. (For those on the Oh, I don't want to pop your romantic bubble (or any of your bubbles :), but it's come up on the adrenal list lately that adrenal fuzzies may lick skin a lot more than non-adrenal fuzzies, perhaps because of a salt craving and maybe you could figure out why?.... I'm sure Sandy loves you ardently and adamently all the same! Hugs to all fuzzies, those lost from love, and those safe in their snuggle sacks, furry, furless, black or purple, with a million toes or none... Lynn and, always, the long-bodied fur Gang -------------------End of Adrenal List #30---------------------------