From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 7:52 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Subject: FAIML #302; June 17, 1999 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #302; June 17, 1999 Hi. This list probably sheds more light on why we're here to support each other than any I've read in a long time. These are tough diseases and, with our vets, we face difficult decisions with unknown outcomes. All we can do is our best, and love our fur kids, and we, and the wonderful vets we rely on, do that well. I'm so thankful that there are caring vets like Dr. Weiss, who is testing new treatments, and Dr. Purcell, who shares her compassion and knowledge with us through this forum. I've spoken with Dr. Cathy Johnson-Delaney recently, who said the adrenal study she is involved in should be gearing up this summer. My conversation with her gave me hope that adrenal disease can someday be a thing of the past. Unfortunately, hope for insulinoma seems farther off. My condolences to Clare for sweet Jasmine, and to Andrea for Miracle Bean. Fuzzy hugs, Lynn 1. Adrenal Ferret 2. Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT 3. Re: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT 4. Re: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT 5. Re: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT 6. Thea's recovery & more questions 7. Jasmine's vena cava ligation 8. another visit to Dr. Weiss 9. Jasmine is gone 10. Miracle Bean is gone /Lupron risks???? 11. insulinoma 12. Re: FAIML #301; June 14, 1999 13. Re: FAIML #300; June 14, 1999 14. Re: Sunshine and dizziness 15. Re: FAIML #301; June 14, 1999 16. THANK YOU TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an e-mail. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a good source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Subject: Adrenal Ferret From: petersen Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:32:43 -0500 I haven't been paying much attention to the discussion of medications for adrenal ferrets on the FML, as we've had good luck with surgery. However, we just got a ferret back into the shelter who has already had her left adrenal removed, and now her vulva is extremely swollen. The original surgery was done in September 98, and we think she is about three years old. Any suggestions? We've had bad luck with bilateral adrenal surgery, and it seems like a lot of extra stress for this ferret. She has grown all of her hair back, by the way, has a really nice coat. Kurt & Sara Petersen FURRY (Ferrets Underfoot RUnning Round You) http://members.igateway.net/~furry Help raise money for the shelter! Click on http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5129 2. Subject: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT From: Ron DeBaecke Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:07:24 -0700 (PDT) MODERATOR'S NOTE: This post was previously sent by itself to subscribers. I'm posting it, as usual, in the next available list. Hello all. Thea went in for her surgery at 9:00 am... the vet just called and its not good news.. She finally did find a adrenal tumor, though i do not have specifics.. I assume it is on the right side because she says it has attached to the liver(kidney?,i cant remember now). Also the major arterey is attached.. So you can gues i am heart broken.. I was praying all would finally go right... It is taking all my strength just to write about it, but i need too for Thea.. She is my princess. i have mentioned lupron to the vet, and she agrees that would be the best solution.. But she has no experience with it yet, i need any info i can get!!! She really wants to know dosage,etc..She asked if i can find out ASAP.. If anyone can help, please! i will post more details as soon as i can. We should be picking her up this evening.. Thank you, and thanks to all for the encouraging emails i recieved.. It really does help.. Ron 3. Subject: Re: (Fwd) Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT From: WV8181@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:28:20 EDT Please talk to Dr Charles Weiss about your situation 301 299 4142 4. Subject: Re: (Fwd) Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT From: Ann Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:03:39 -0700 (PDT) My vet is a ferret specialist and I recommend him without reservation. He is Dr. Weiss at Potomac Animal Hospital: 301-299-4142 He charges $30 for a consultation (I think) but he is super nice and very knowledgeable about this. He is doing a study on lupron, and is giving ferrets doses that last 4 months. My 7 year old has had 2 and her adrenal symptoms have disappeared. He wrote an article about it in the last Modern Ferret. Good luck with your baby; I know firsthand how darling they are and how distressing it is when they are ill. Keep us posted. --Ann 5. Subject: Re: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT From: Ferret Guy Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:14:17 -0400 > From: Ron DeBaecke > Subject: Help.. Thea's surgery URGENT > > Hello all. > > I assume it is on the right side because she says it > has attached to the liver(kidney?,i cant remember > now). Also the major arterey is attached.. So you can > gues i am heart broken.. The gland should be removed, the vena cava may be cut and the blood will use adjoining vessels. Get a good vet and save the ferret. Steve -- Pierre the first, Dallas the statemen, Buttercup the strong, Annie our heart, Tigger the slow, Willow one fang, Bear the kiss ass, Buddy the loveable, Mickey the meany, Abbe our love, BV the brain, Smokie the starter, Milton the mountain climber, Fredie the biter, Vinnie the kind and Dundie the large plus Steve & Cheryl the bill payers. Please visit us and our business of ferrets at http://www.tamart.com/sr.html or our business at http://www.tamart.com/ and for email mailto:steve@tamart.com or mailto:cheryl@tamart.com or via ICQ #2851077 6. Subject: Thea's recovery & more questions From: Ron DeBaecke Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Hello everyone.. My wife and I would love to thank everyone for their help and the support we have recieved.. It warms our hearts to know with all the terrible things in the world today(wars,bombings,school shootings,etc,etc,) that there is still so many wonderful,caring people like yourselves... Thank You from the bottom of our hearts........ I have tried to reply with thanks to all who have sent, if i forget anyone, i appoligize. My eyes and fingers are getting sore! But i will try to reply to everyone. Now for info on Thea. She is recovery wonderfully! Im sure all of your wishes and prayers have helped!!; or maybe she is just getting to used to surgery :-] (3 so far) She is walking in her cage, eating chicken baby food. Actually i took some to the vet the day of surgery and she was amazed at how much she ate after waking from surgery. She is alert, does her stretches when she wakes, and takes interest in us and her surrounds. All good signs!! Our vet said the tumor is only about the size of a large pea. Is that considered small???? She says Thea is a very deformed ferret, probably from imbreeding for color(she's a butterscotch). She has no left kidney, nor has she been able to find a left adrenal either time she was in. And the way the right adrenal and tumor were tucked under the liver and attached to the vena, it was very dangerous to remove. I opted to have her closed up and try medical treatments. if there is not a left adrenal, and the right was removed, she would need meds anyway. So Lupron sounded very good. Also, she says the spleen may have looked a little larger than norm, but nothing to worry about.. Is this normal with adrenal ferrets???? Now for the Lupron part.. After franticly gathering info on surgery day, i located a vet 45 mintutes from me that stores and uses Lupron. His name is Dr. David Kupersmith in Cherry Hill NJ.. I know he has ferret knowledge, he has written some articles in modern ferret. Has anyone used him before???? And has anyone had him do Lupron shots???? I would love to find more info on the 4 month lupron.. I dont mind the drive or $$ every month, but 4 months would be so simple.. But i'll do what ever it takes for her.... I know i had more questions, but they have slipped my mind... And i think i've taken enough space for one post.. Any more info on Lupron,the above questions, or just well wishes would be very appreciated.. Again, we can not thank you all enough! You make this much,much easier to deal with, good or bad..... Thank You Ron,Candy, Thea,Teddy,Cuddles,and the crazy husky-Lacey 7. Subject: Jasmine's vena cava ligation From: Clare Sebok Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:22:48-0400 (EDT) Jasmine had surgery yesterday. We expected a splenectomy and a routine adrenal surgery; instead, she had a vena cava ligation. Her symptoms were a very large spleen, overeating, obesity, and inactivity. Her coat showed only mild adrenal signs. We were shocked to find that she had such a huge right adrenal tumor. The huge spleen turned out to be secondary to the adrenal tumor, which was interfering with the blood flow from the spleen. The spleen returned to normal size after the adrenal tumor was removed, so Dr. Weiss left it in. The adrenal tumor was also growing into one lobe of the liver, so Dr. Weiss removed that lobe of Jasmine's liver. Jasmine was alert soon after surgery and walking around, and her color was good. She surprised Dr. Weiss and the technicians by walking away from the heating pad sooner than anyone expected her to move around. She did not need a blood transfusion, although we brought two-year-old Charlie along as a donor. Dr. Weiss took Jasmine home with him last night; Charlie went too in case his blood was needed. We got a reassuring phone call this morning from Dr. Weiss telling us that she was doing well. Jasmine is home with us now. We're watching her carefully and so far have not called Dr. Weiss at home. Her color looks good (pink nose and foot pads) and she drinks water and licks Nutrical. She can walk, and she took some "duck soup." My main worry is that she seems to be in a lot of pain. She is breathing very rapidly and seems quite restless. She startles easily, and her eyes usually look partly open. She panted a couple of times, which was scary, but it seemed to occur when she changed her position. I think she is recovering but is in more pain than usual for ferrets after surgery. I gave her a dose of Torbutrol this afternoon, and she is due for another dose at 3 a.m. I plan to get up during the night and give it to her. Fortunately, she takes her medication-laced Nutrical eagerly. I really wish we could give her morphine. Clare and Bill (very worried parents) Buttercup (growing new hair after Lupron) Jasmine (feeling awful) Charlie (recovering from 28 hours in a pet porter) Bridgett and Bonnie 8. Subject: another visit to Dr. Weiss From: Clare Sebok Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:03:48 -0400 (EDT) First, let me tell you that Dr. Weiss examined Jasmine this morning and thinks she is OK. Now, I'll tell you why we got only two hours of sleep last night. Jasmine was breathing rapidly last evening, but since I've seen that in a post- op patient before, I wasn't too worried. I started to get more worried about 11:00 last night when I noticed that Jasmine was very restless. I wondered if it would be safe to give her a higher dose of Torbutrol, but I didn't want to call Dr. Weiss so late (he has a newborn baby). About an hour or two later, we noticed that Jasmine would occasionally breathe loudly and pant, mainly when she moved around. I decided to give her a dose of Torbutrol about 2 hours early. We had Jasmine in our bedroom and kept watching her. We really got worried when the panting episodes continued. Another worrisome symptom was the fact that she hadn't gone to the bathroom for at least 12 hours. We debated about going to an emergency clinic and even looked up the address of the one recommended by Diane Rogers. But Jasmine's foot pads and nose were pink, she did not feel cold or hot, she was always alert and could lift her head, and she drank water on her own and licked Nutrical eagerly. Also, we didn't hear any congestion in her chest. Finally, at about 4:00 a.m., she went into the litterbox and pooped and peed. At about 4:30 we fell asleep and woke up at about 6:30. We got up and prepared to take her to Dr. Weiss. We noticed that she seemed more alert and wasn't panting much anymore. Dr. Weiss listened to her chest and said her heart and lungs sounded fine. He examined her, took her temperature, and concluded that the rapid breathing and panting were caused by "discomfort" (I would call it pain). He said we could give the Torbutrol every 6 hours instead of every 12 hours. He gave her sub-q fluids and a Torbutrol injection. I think the injectable Torbutrol must work better because she isn't panting anymore and has been resting more comfortably. We are very relieved that he found no signs of a life-threatening problem. I really wish there were better pain control methods for animals. I think human patients would be on morphine after such a painful operation. Now that we're reassured about Jasmine, our main goal today is to stay awake. Clare 9. Subject: please post soon: Jasmine is gone From: Clare Sebok Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 01:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Jasmine passed away at about 12:05 a.m. She did not survive the post-op period after Tuesday's vena cava ligation. We had Jasmine in her hospital cage next to our bed. Just after we turned out the lights, we heard several small cries. We turned on the lights to check on her, and she cried a few more times and stopped breathing. We feel terrible that she went through so much suffering during her last days and never got the chance to recover. We thought her long-term prognosis was good. Jasmine was only 4 years old. We will write a eulogy for her tomorrow. This was our first post-op loss and the guilt is hard to bear. Clare 10. Subject: Miracle Bean is gone /Lupron risks???? From: Andrea M Miralia Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:03:25 -0400 Hi all. My amazing Bean girl died the night of June 4th... over the midnight hour. After being diagnosed and treated surgically for adrenal tumors and insulinoma four and a half years ago, I had much more time with her than I expected... but it was still very hard. She had an extremely aggressive carcinoma this time around, and the vet (amazing friend) decided there was too much of a blood supply running through the tumor to risk removing it. Still, Bean came home that night and was waking up and eating a little bit... when at around midnight, she suddenly acted very distressed, and died in my arms. It was terrible... and I miss her painfully... she was so strong and pulled through so many difficult times I had actually lost count. Her partial pancreactomy back in December gave her new bounce and she acted young and happy again at the age of seven years! She had bouts with ulcers, helicobacter, bilateral adrenal adenomas, insulinomic seizures that almost killed her... but most of her time was great. She was truly a wonder weasel. (She did NOT have a pheochromocytoma as originally thought... but an aggressive, highly malignant adrenal carcinoma ... more details eventually when I see the reports.) Now, this week, Benny (debulked right side adrenal adenoma) had another run-in with a urinary tract infection caused by E.coli in his system (?) which we're treating with amoxy. And now my other female Snoop has an abdominal mass that has to come out on Monday -- we expect the pathology back tomorrow. The ultrasound showed it's large, but not attached to any major organs-- possibly a little too close to the bladder for a simple, quick surgery, however. Her right-side adrenal tumor has grown back as well, but we will probably do a separate surgery for that -- a vena cava ligation this time. It's been a bad June. Everyone is now on Bob Church's gravy -- Amos (like Benny AND Snoo) needs right-side adrenal surgery, too, and needs to gain weight. So, everyone has been on Lupron since January... I guess it has alleviated the symptoms -to a small degree- but in Snoo's case, it didn't affect the tumor itself (no one ever said it would). I am beginning to fear that I've done something wrong with my ferrets--- I'm actually wondering if the Lupron has caused this recent increase in fast-growing tumors in my house! I know that's possibly an inflammatory thing to say, but I AM curious if I could be doing something wrong, or if other people with ferrets on Lupron have seen any -unwanted- side effects. My four (including Bean) were all from different litters and are slightly different in age. Bean was seven years one month.. Benny is six and a half... Amos and Snoo are about five and a half or six. So it's either coincidence everyone has had right-side adrenal tumors, or something to do with diet, something with the electric versus natural daylight theory (but why would that cause specifically right side adrenal problems?), or lupron, or the DRINKING WATER, or... something else in their environment... or a combination. >>Sigh<<. Vibes for succesful surgeries for both snoo and Amos would be appreciated. (Benny's feeling much better already.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrea Miralia miralia@juno.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. Subject: insulinoma From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:51:41 +0000 Dear Janell, > Hello. I have recently discovered my ferret may have insulinoma. I > have the disadvantage of not have a very knowledgable vet near by > (that I've found, anyway!). I need some advice. Does it always > require surgery, or will the duck soup recipe be able to help her. > Surgery can extend the lifespan and the time without medication. > I should mention, it has only been discovered because my ferret > couldn't walk and I thought she had a stroke. I immediately took > her to the vet who told me it was adrenal disease. While there's a > lot I don't know about ferrets, I know enough that the symptoms > didn't really point in that direction. > > Well, now they're thinking she simply threw her back out. However, > I do know a vet several hours away who is VERY knowledge on ferrets, > so I called him. He asked if she was drooling (not that I can tell) > and is she licking her lips a lot? (yes) Well, any advice at this > point would be much appreciated. The good vet didn't mention that > he needed to see her, even when I kept making it clear I could bring > her up on Saturday morning. I just thought this was actually a lot > better than adrenal disease and it would just require a special > diet. I would get her to the knowledgeable vet for a blood glucose, preferably done after a 3 hour fast. That should give you some idea of what is going on. Also, supplementing with duck soup three or four times daily will help her clinical signs. Hope this helps, -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com currently practicing in Cumberland, RI 12. Subject: Re: FAIML #301; June 14, 1999 From: Melissa Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:12:41 -0400 >3. Subject: Insulinoma/dizziness? >From: Anonymous >Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT) >.......She never had a seizure before and I was hoping someone could >tell me if that was what happened to her yesterday? Any input will be >greatly appreciated. In a word... "yes". That's what it sounds like to me. My first thought was also a possible stroke. This is how my ferret acted when she (supposedly) had one. But my ferret has also had insulinoma attacks where she'd spin around in little tight circles and then fall over. Since your ferret improved so well with the food it sounds more likely to me that it was insulinoma related. Keep an eye out to see if there are any re-occurances of this. If there are and they tend to be more frequent you might need a medication adjustment and veterinary check up. If not, then she might be fine for now. -Melissa 13. Subject: Re: FAIML #300; June 14, 1999 From: Melissa Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:51:58 -0400 >2. Subject: Insulinoma >From: Janell Curtis >Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:35:32 -0500 >Hello. I have recently discovered my ferret may have insulinoma. I >have the disadvantage of not have a very knowledgable vet near by >(that I've found, anyway!). I need some advice. Does it always >require surgery, or will the duck soup recipe be able to help her. Unfortunately there is no "cure" for insulinoma no matter what you do. But there are several different things you can do to prolong the life -and a good quality of life- of a ferret with insulinoma. Surgery so far seems to prolong thier lives the longest. Medicine also helps the symptoms, and so do certain types of duck soup recipes. Of course, a combination of these three things works best. Ferrets can live several years after diagnosis, but do bear in mind that none of these things will be curative. I'm sure you'll get many more suggestions from people here in this group. Now, as to whether your ferret actually *has* insulinoma.... it sounds like the vet on the phone was right, but the best way to find out is to get a fasting glucose test done in the vet's office -not the kind they send off to a lab. If this confirms the low bloodsugar diagnosis, then it might be a good time to start her on some of the different treatment options. The Insulinoma FAQ (which I'm sure Lynn has sent you by now) will have more information on these. I do think, however, that a full work up is neccesary. Insulinoma *is* the most likely diagnosis for what you describe, but those symptoms could be caused by other things. Is your ferret eating regularly? Count the number of kibbles in the dish and count again in 24 hours to see how much is being eaten. If your ferret is not eating for some reason, then THAT too could be causing a low blood sugar reaction. I think it's great that you were willing to bring your ferret in to see this vet who's so far away. I don't know why that vet seemed so reluctant. If you can give us a general idea of where you live, maybe somebody else on this list can give you the name of a vet who's closer -and willing to see you! If not, I'd say take the 3 hour trip and make the appointment anyway just to be sure. Good luck and welcome to the list. -Melissa >3. Subject: Schnookie >From: "Bob F." harley74@concentric.net >Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:09:33 -0700 > >........Thursday I brought him >back to the vet because he was vomiting so much....... I did ask >about this possibly being a blockage and the doctor said no its not. Ok.... I'm glad your ferret is doing better and if it continues to do so then that's great. I understand that you have complete confidence in this vet, but I have to say that I'm a little concerned if this doctor ruled out the possibility of a blockage in a vomiting ferret without taking any xrays. -or were they taken? I hope things continue to improve, but if they don't, find another "really good vet" who will take the proper xrays. Hope he continues to do well. -Melissa 14. Subject: Re: Sunshine and dizziness From: lisa dempsey Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:25:06 PDT I am not a vet but I understand that you will often see this type of behavior with insuilnoma/any glucose flux. However, that does not mean that it is normal. It sounds like Sunshine may need to have her meds adjusted by your vet, and soon. You will also want to check with your vet that s/he doesn't think this behavior could be anything else, because almost anything is a possibility with these guys. However, it does sound like a glucose related problem, and you should be able to regulate it with medication. Good luck to you and your fuzzies and let me know what you find out from your vet! Lisa, Maurice (the new kid), Emma (the incredibly patient Greyhound), all missing Claude 15. Subject: Re: FAIML #301; June 14, 1999 From: KERTWR@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:02:28 EDT to: Annomys-Rachell About the inslunoma fuzzy and tilting to one side.... My (past ) ferret Mia had surg. last year and she had brain damage after it, from the severe sezieurs we couldnt bring her out of, or maybe the surg itself or together. She would flop around like a fish out of water, but once up and stable, she would run and remember where things were. She also lost control of her bowls and urine, well, she forgot how to use litter box. Just a thought, seemed to be Mias left side. Good luck! Kisses from Heaven Ker 16. Subject: THANK YOU From: batzwing@webtv.net (june batz) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:07:33 -0700 (PDT) I WANT TO THANK all of you for such wonderful input for my insulinomic ferrert, Phoebe..time will tell..I of course will not wait 3 months to check her bg again, and I will fast her, what, 4 to 6 hours prior to the visit?!..I dont think the vet will turn me away because i want testing done on my ferret..in the mean time, it has been suggested I shop around for a new vet..hmmm, I really like this one, though she may not be AS knowledgable as I would like..she still is a great vet. Thanks again, June ------------------- End of FAIML #302 ---------------------