From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 4:39 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Subject: FAIML #306; June 28, 1999 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #306; June 28, 1999 1. Bandit 2. Adrenal Tumors questions 3. Adrenal Disease - Living with it and Living Well 4. second guessing treatment 5. pediapred 6. Roofuss - Insulinoma 7. hind leg weakness 8. Pain medication 9. Thea's recovery & more questions 10. Lupron Study Starting 11. Adrenal Ferret Search 12. About Lupron 13. Looking bony 14. FAIML #305; June 26, 1999 TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an e-mail. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a good source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Subject: Bandit From: "Rocky" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:41:05 -0700 Well, Bandit is doing much better. Her vulva has gone back down and she has moved back into the bedroom with us. She still hates the new kitten and the Prairie Dogs, but as long as she's getting better, that's okay by me. Her fur is getting softer again and she has started to put more weight on. She is using the litter box too. My second vet said he didn't want to do surgery on her, he wanted to wait a little while. She had no hair loss and her blood was normal. After the check up, he said that sometimes it takes a little longer for the one gland that's left to do the work on it's own. He didn't understand why she wasn't put on the meds to help it along, but said it would'nt be good to do it now. He said that it looks like her gland has started to take over now. The vet is very optomistic right now. We still have to do the check-ups, but for now it must have been a hormonal surge. (power surge as I call it). She is even more active and is really playing hard, I think she missed us all! Thanks for all the support of this list. We are still watching her very close, and will keep you posted. Again thanks Rocky Bandit (I wasn't sick, I just wanted the attention...) Taz-man (Don't do that again.. You scared me!) Levi (Bandi, you moved out, when? you were sick? what's going on here?) 2. Subject: Adrenal Tumors questions From: MsStacey19@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:10:43 EDT About 2 years ago our girl, Trixie, started showing all of the signs of adrenal tumors (weight loss, hair loss, swollen vulva). We decided to go ahead with surgery and our vet said that she removed the left gland and debulked the right one. Trixie recovered beautifully. She put on a little weight, her vuvla looked fine, and she even grew a full coat of hair! Then, this February, we noticed the syptoms were slowly starting to appear again. We were told by the vet that sometime, becuase it is not entirly removed, the right adrenal gland can grow back. After watching her for several months we decided to try surgery again. To our dismay, and the vet's, there was nothing there. So, my questions are: 1) has anyone else heard of the right adrenal gland growing back? 2) if the vet could not find any adrenal tumors, what else could be causing the syptoms? Right now Tixie has lost 4 oz (she is currently at 1 lb) and she looks a little ribby even though she eats a lot and gets lots of ferretvite. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Stacey Trixie, Cassy, and Sasha 3. Subject: Adrenal Disease - Living with it and Living Well From: Lynne Wooldridge Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:56:02 -0500 To Bandit's Parents: Dustie has had adrenal disease for about two years. He had surgery on the "easy adrenal" but the other adrenal was too difficult to remove. He did well from the surgery and he is doing well on lupron. Yes, he does have to take the injection once a month. He had his injection yesterday, and he did not stop licking the Ferretone when he got the shot. He barely noticed (but then my vet is GOOD!). We are very lucky there! He does take pred (1/2 cc twice a day) and I mix this in his duck soup. He has his down days, but most of the time he seems to feel very well. When he is down, I try to give him more TLC. I am trying to provide good nutrition, exercise and fun, a clean, fresh cage, and lots of love---this is good medicine, too. Don't give up on a fur friend who has adrenal disease. Become informed about the latest treatments (it seems that you are trying to do this by writing this group---good for you!). It is not hopeless. Good luck from Lynne and Dustie 4. Subject: second guessing treatment From: Apollo174@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:21:19 EDT Hi all, I just wanted to offer my condolences again to those who have lost their furry babies. I am writing to get some opinions. Every so often, I get guilt-ridden and second guess the choices I've made with Trekkie's treatment. For those of you who don't know the specifics. She will be 8 in July and has been diagnosed with insulinoma for a year now. (She is getting 1/4 tablet of pred 2x a day) She has swollen lymph glands and the vet felt a abdominal mass although we elected not to do a biopsy. So, among the insulinoma, it is possible she has lymphoma. I didn't do surgery for the insulinoma because of her age and now I'm wondering if I'm doing the right thing. Has anyone had success with surgeries in advanced insulinomics and old ferrets? Do you guys thing that managing her with the pred is still the right option? I go through waves of indecision. Her energy level fluctuates. She is eating mashed up, watered food many times a day. I am also thinking about adding proglycem. I am sorry for the length of this rambling but any opinions from ferret folk would be much appreciated. --Marissa and her only ferret, Trekkie 5. Subject: pediapred From: "Donna Cleary" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:14:15 -0400 our nikkyo (4.5 yrs) was put on pediapred (liquid .3 once a day) for insulinoma with a 6-month follow-up. after a few weeks, she seems to be uncomfortable more and more, and she's less inclined to play (sometimes looks around like "hmmmm... that looks like fun..." and then curls back up to sleep when she used to play). also, her hind legs sometimes seem very "unmotivated". we've been wondering if the pediapred has been hurting her tummy and we asked the vet about that and the hind leg weakness. i'm hoping that i've misunderstood things i've been reading about prednisone causing ulcers, etc. is this not the case with pediapred? i'm asking because her vet just told me that she's given pediapred to ferrets for many, many years with NO tummy problems. please, somebody tell me that pediapred isn't hurting her tummy. vet did say that if we think her tummy is hurting, to give 1/4 of a tums 2x per day. we would appreciate any comments/opinions on any of this. donna/b/carrie --> property of butter/nikkyo/ikkyo and always wacko, our first angel 6. Subject: Roofuss - Insulinoma From: Aaron Wilder Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:51:12 -0400 Hello All - I am writing to all of you mainly for advice, but some support would definitely be appreciated :-)... Roofuss, my maybe 4 yr old ferret got a blood glucose level reading of 64 the other day. He hasn't shown any insulinoma symptoms other than some extra flat ferreting and some drooling after we give him his medicine for his gums (he takes clindamycin for gingivitis). I know that surgery is the preferred treatment for insulinoma but I'm afraid of this option. I think that if I knew Roofuss' age for sure it would help me decide, but since he's a rescue and the vet places him at at least four, doesn't this make surgery risky? What kind of life-expectancy are we looking at here? Does the fact that he's not showing symptoms yet mean that possibly he doesn't have a bad case of it? He had a BG reading of 87 in January. I don't know - it just seems we don't get enough time with these little guys. Thanks, Nancy Wilder 7. Subject: hind leg weakness From: miralia@juno.com Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:03:42 -0400 In my experience, hind end weakness was caused by insulinoma and/or heart disease, although heart disease is more "all over weakness" that's usually accompanied by deep coughing. I'm sure you know the symptoms for insulinoma at this point, and that dragging the back legs around is one of those symptoms. -andrea 8. Subject: Pain medication From: "Kelly Cameron" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:46:17 -0700 Hi I just wanted to thank whoever mentioned using Torbutrol for pain in their ferret after adrenal surgery. Since I had so much trouble post-op with my last ferret that had a bilateral adrenal surgery (she seemed in so much pain and didn't make it through the night) that I was really leary of our shelter ferret, Garth (the one I was worried that had lymphoma too) going through surgery last week. Well, I asked my vet to send someof this medication home with me, and it sure seemed to make him rest more comfortably that first night. Do other people's vets use20 pain medication after this surgery for their ferrets? I know not all of them may need it, but it sure made me feel better knowing I had it on hand to help him out if needed. Thanks again. By the way, Garth is doing great, turned out to be a large tumor on his left adrenal. Julie 9. Subject: Thea's recovery & more questions From: "Kennel, Leann" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:07:48 -0400 >From: Ron DeBaecke >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:25:30 -0700 (PDT) >His name is Dr. David >Kupersmith in Cherry Hill NJ.. I know he has ferret >knowledge, he has written some articles in modern >ferret. Has anyone used him before???? And has anyone >had him do Lupron shots???? Just wanted to let you know that Dr. David Kupersmith is my current vet. I was referred to him 3 years ago when we discovered Rikki had adrenal problems. He performed a very successful surgery on her. She is still in terrific health. I have not had to go the route of Lupron but do know that Dr. Kupersmith has been very successful with this as we always discuss Adrenal options should Rikki ever have a recurrence or should anything show up in my other 4 ferrets. I feel Dr. Kupersmith is extremely ferret knowledgeable and I would highly recommend him to anyone. I take all five of my ferrets to him every year and in between when necessary. I travel a little over an hour to visit his office and it is well worth the trip. If you have any other questions about Dr. Kupersmith that I may be able to answer for you please don't hesitate to contact me directly. By the way you will find his staff is wonderful as well. Keep me posted on Thea's progress with Lupron. I will be sure to mention Thea when I see Dr. Kupersmith in August for my babies annual shots. Best wishes to you and Thea on her continued recovery and good health. 10. Subject: Lupron Study Starting From: "Lynn McIntosh" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:07:48 -0400 MODERATOR'S NOTE: This is a message from Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM, who is helping organizing the study she discusses below. She recently wrote an article for Ferrets Magazine, May/June 1999, which discusses her treatment for her own adrenal ferret, Robbie, who received Lupron after his adrenal disease returned following surgery. Note that in the Ferrets Magazine article there was an editing error on page 60, first paragraph entitled "Treatment Begins", where the leuprolide should read Lysodren. Then, the editor cut out a bit after that where Robbie begins Lupron therapy, which helped with his urinary tract blockage problem and was an injection every four weeks. There is a sidebar in the article that mentions who to contact regarding the study. Dr. Johnson-Delaney requests that vets only, please, contact her or Dr. Jack Oliver (University of Tennessee), due to time constraints, and preferably use e-mail. Dr. Johnson-Delaney's e-mail is and Dr. Oliver's is . ********************************************************************** >From Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM: The UT (University of Tennessee) ferret project will actually be enrolling ferrets by mid July (as soon as packets go out, qualifications met, and forms/fees received at UT). Two sections to the study. Veterinarian and owner can decide which they will assign their ferret to. Project is to 1. evaluate effectiveness of left adrenalectomy and measure hormone levels at specific intervals post surgery to determine length of remission and as a comparison to medical tx. This will also give us a controlled look at rebound and at when to predict further screening in all other ferrets. 2. evaluate the effectiveness of leuprolide acetate depot 30 day formulation as a therapy in ferrets with left adrenal enlargement. This group will have no surgery, but will receive six doses of Lupron depot 30 day formulation every 30 days with hormone panels run at the same intervals as those run post surgery. All ferrets who qualify as enrollees shall have only left adrenal enlargement (those with none, both, or right will not be included). They also cannot have concurrent lymphoma/lymphosarcoma or functional islet cell tumors (hypoglycemia). Owners will commit to the 6 month study period. At the end, ferrets who finish will receive (actually, it will be sent to their owners) a beautiful certificate showing their participation in this important study and their contribution to the health of ferretdom. 30 males and 30 females will be used for each of the two sections of the study. Details will be sent shortly to the participating veterinarians who have already contacted us. Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM University of Washington ********************************************************************** 11. Subject: Adrenal Ferret Search From: Melanee Ellis Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:39:46 -0800 Your e-mail was given to me as a potential source for this information. I am searching out ferret owners of adrenal ferrets to possibly participate in a study that will take place in July. If you know of someone who is located in or around Juneau, Alaska, please contact me via e-mail or look me up in the book (I used to post my telephone number, but got some rather interesting calls at one point). E-mail is mellis@gci.net. My vet currently knows of only one ferret and she needs about 6 to make the study worthwhile and to keep the medication costs down for the ferret owners. If you are interested at all, please contact me! Thanks! Melanee Ellis "The Ferret Lady" Juneau, Alaska 12. Subject: About Lupron From: Petsgalor9@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:46:34 EDT Subject: Facts and study for Lupron Just wanted to let everyone know that a very good friend of mine has close contact with Dr. Charles Weiss who has done the studies on ferrets using Lupron. He has given her permission to pass along the information in order that we can all give it to our vets. She is now in the process of editing it so that everyone will have a factual sheet of information. I promise to pass it along to all of you as soon as she says it is okay. The results he has had using this drug have been fantastic. Here in Indiana the drug is VERY expensive and the shelf life is only one month. So expensive, in fact, that I don't know of anyone who could afford to treat individual ferrets. (It comes in a large enough vile to treat quite a few ferrets ) The good news, however, is that Dr. Weiss has found a pharmacy that will fill the drug in individual doses to vets. In the sheet I will be posting, it even gives a toll free number of that pharmacy. My friend has promised that it will be ready in a day or so. Hang in there and I promise to get it out ASAP. I have two adrenal ferrets right now and one just had left adrenal surgery in May so I have high hopes for this drug. 13. Subject: Looking bony From: "Michael F. Janke" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:18:48 -0400 > From: "Janice L. Underwood" > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:17:40 -0400 (EDT) > her drinking. Her blood sugar was tested, and it was 109. She's lost > a significant amount of weight, and is right around one pound. She's > always been a long skinny girl - even winter weight has never > exceeded 1-1/4, but now her hip bones are sticking out. This is not to say that Anaka hasn't lost too much weight, but ferrets that have lost or thinning hair tend to look bony. I weigh my guys every few weeks and when Spaz was loosing hair because of his adrenal problem (since cured), he began to look awful bony. But his weight never really changed more than a few grams. Now that his coat is back to its full, soft texture, he looks fat and fluffy, but again, his weight hasn't changed at all. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * A 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation * * Visit our shelter's web site: http://www.miamiferret.org * Visit the Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/FHC 14. Subject: Re: FAIML #305; June 26, 1999 From: Melissa Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:44:21 -0400 >1. Subject: Fatigue/Hind end weakness >From: Lynne Wooldridge >Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:31:15 -0500 > >My 8 (approximately) year old ferret, Dustie, has been doing well >since his surgery last summer for adrenal disease, insulinoma, and >enlarged spleen (removed). However, recently he has had less energy >and tonight I noticed that he was having trouble climbing into his >little "house" which is flat on the ground..... >Dustie is taking 1/2 cc of pred twice a day, and .4 ml of baytril for >chronic urinary tract infection. He gets lupron injections once each >month. Hi, This is actually more a question added to your question. I really know almost nothing about Lupron and Lysodren except what I read here. My question is... if adrenal surgery is done, why continue the Lupron? To keep a remaining adrenal from going haywire? Is it a remnant that's left? I'm just wondering because one theory I heard (a few years ago) said that if there's just a remnant, even if it remains a little tumorous and starts over producing hormones, it's unlikely it will equal the output of two full adrenals. So I was just wondering about this. I'm sorry Dustie is not feeling well. Is he eating ok? I wonder if the stress from the kittens (as you suspect) is causing stomach upset. -Melissa >2. Subject: Anaka's surgery >From: "Janice L. Underwood" >Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:17:40 -0400 (EDT) > >Hi all - > >Anaka had surgery yesterday [Wednesday] to remove a right adrenal >tumor, or so we thought. ..... >I feed Totally Ferret mixed with small amounts of Iams kitten [to >help keep stools firm] Again I have question prompted by this post but not really an answer. I recently had to switch my ferrets to Iams because TF (even adult TF) was causing the older ferret tremendous digestion problems. A switch to Iams resulted in better bowels. We're still treating her for problems, but what a difference that switch to Iams made. Anybody else have this experience? Those symptoms sure sounds like adrenal. Surprising she found nothing at all. One thought is a botched spay and remnants from that, but if she's already had an adrenal removed then it sounds like she's too old for that to suddenly be popping up now. I would have expected that to turn up within the first year. Did your vet biopsy the adrenal? Maybe it is still tumorous even though it's not visible yet. Still it's surprising there would be so many symptoms and no obvious indication of tumors. What about nutrition problems? These could cause hair loss and aggressiveness if she's in pain. If she's been having enough problems to neccesitate a food switch, you might want to look in that direction. Is she grinding her teeth? Swallowing a lot? Personally, in my "non-veterinary" experience, I would suggest a two week round of Biaxin, ammoxi, pepto and see if after two weeks you notice an improvement. I noticed a significant change in coat when we started tackling the digestive problems. I certainly don't think it would hurt anything. It's going to be a pain for you to do this for two weeks, but otherwise I can't see the harm -of course check with your vet! I didn't notice a difference until after the full two week round, so don't expect miracles overnight! I've also had to try other things since them because in my case it came back. We think it's some kind of irritable bowl thing. But knowing that the symptoms disappeared temporarily suggests that we're on the right track. See if this helps. -Melissa ------------------- End of FAIML #306 ----------------------