From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:41 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Subject: FAIML #317; July 28, 1999 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #317; July 28, 1999 1. Diet suggestions? 2. Squirt's ultrasound results 3. Response to Tasha 4. FAIML hi and Lupron question 5. time til Lupron has effect 6. Update on Thea 7. Sympathies 8. Keera/Fezzik 9. Thank you for messages for Petey!; what I learned about hidden heart disease; Gadzook (vena cava ligation; bi-adrenal) doing good! TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an e-mail. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a good source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Subject: Diet suggestions? From: Christine Bertch Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:25:06 -0700 Thank you all for your condolences over our loss of Rikki. It has really helped a lot. I still miss her very much, but I am glad she is at peace. So now I am looking for ideas about Benji. He seems much better (we're getting his blood glucose checked again today to see if it's better) and now we need to get him a more stable diet. He is not interested at all in his regular dry food and we made him a whole recipe of Bob's chicken gravy but would you believe he won't touch it??? It was quite the bear to make (we don't have a nice food processor) and now we have a ton of it that he probably won't eat. The "duck soup" recipe that he will eat is just an easy mixture of science diet a/d, chicken baby food, and water. He doesn't even really like it when we grind up his regular dry food and put a little in the duck soup. So...any suggestions? For those of you who are using the chicken gravy, did you have similar first experiences? How about Timmy's Tonic? Is that a little more palatable? I want to feed him the best I can and obviously waiting to see if he'll eat something is not an option for an insulinomic ferret. Thank you all again for all your support. This list is the best... Christine and Benji, Missy, Fiona, Jezebel, and Wuzzitt *Rikki* in spirit 2. Subject: Squirt's ultrasound results From: Mohr Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:31:19 -0500 Well, we got Squirt's ultrasound done today, and her right adrenal *is* enlarged. Thanks, BTW, to all who responded to my Lupron question! Since she got her first 2mg shot on Saturday, and this is Wednesday, it may be another week before we see significant results. I'm documenting with photos. I'm concerned because the adrenal on the right may at some time invade the vena cava. It's awfully close. My vet has said they lost a dog who had Cushing's to an embolism because of this. So Squirt will be having surgery again, though not right away. We're concentrating now on giving the Lupron some time to work, and also getting her weight up some. She's lost an ounce just since Saturday!! :( Does anyone have suggestions on getting her weight up, or at least stabilized??? She is now 1 lb 4 oz. I am using duck soup (high calorie energy drink -- *not* dairy -- with blended dry food and a daub of honey) now, but other suggestions are welcome. Thanks! I'm so glad to have found this list. :) -Tasha 3. Subject: Response to Tasha From: Jennifer.Christen@nordstrom.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:19:34 -0600 Hi Tasha, I was very sorry to hear about your little one. It sounds so similar to my little girl it is uncanny. Tabitha is now 5 3/4, but she started having her first signs of adrenal disease in March of 1998. She had a swolen vulva with green muscus. I had her looked at by a couple vets and tried a couple things to no avail, and finally she had surgery in June 1998. The vet said her left adrenal looked discolored and took it out. He said the right looked ok. Nothing happened. Her symptoms didn't go away! (By the way, she NEVER lost any hair, so that isn't always a sign.) So I brought her in again for surgery in Sept 1998 and he took out half of the right adrenal gland. Her swolen vulva *finally* went to normal in October and stayed that way until mid-January 1999. (I thank God for that because during that time I lost my nine year old cat to cancer...I don't know how I would have handled both of them being sick.) But, unfortunately, her vulva started to swell again slowly over time starting in January. She had never tested positively to cancer in her previous operations. This time she seemed weak, unlike before. She was getting scrawny, had gone to 1.5 lbs from 2, and her skin was very very flaky and blotchy. The vet told me there was a slight risk in opening her up again and taking more of the right adrenal out, but he did it any way in March 1999. I am glad he did! She FULLY recovered this time, gained all her weight back, has looked healthier and chipper than ever! BUT I am sorry to say, just two weeks ago, her vulva started growing again. But she is still doing well otherwise. I think I will wait another month or so (because the vulva is just a bit swollen right now), and then give her another surgery. I heard that the adrenal grows back so that is probably what happened. But she had a hard recovery after surgery last time. I get nervous giving her surgery at her age. Also, I heard ferrets can last a couple years with this disease untreated, so now I have to decide do I want to risk a 4th surgery or just let her go on naturally. Well, I am going to opt for surgery since she was so much better after this last one. But I do have to tell you they did discover cancer in the last surgery. However, I have read only 2% of ferrets with this type of cancer have it mestasticize. In the meantime, I have moved to another state, so I have to have a new vet do the surgery, which I don't like. Just wanted to let you know what happened with mine. My advice would be to have the vet take out as much of the right as is safe. Let me know what happens. God bless, Jennifer ...................................................................... Jennifer Christen * Systems Test Engineer * Nordstrom Product Group IT * 890-2711 / (206) 903-2711 / Fax (206) 903-2629 * jennifer.christen@nordstrom.com 4. FAIML hi and Lupron question From: EquineAmy@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:01:13 EDT Connor was diagnosed on June 23rd with a possible adrenal tumor, and it was confirmed on June 28th with an ultrasound. He also got a shot of Lupron that same day. The only sign that Connor had was a loss of hair on his back and the underneath of his tail (which started from his blackheads and not necessarily the tumor itself). Connor's hair when it started falling out, would mostly come out as I touched him. Actually the first loss of hair from his back was when he was trying to climb into the garbage bag when i was cleaning the cage and he was a little to far away for me to pick him up so I just kind of pulled....and off came some hair. Anyway, the day of his ultrasound and Lupron, his hair was just coming out a few pieces at a time, not clumps and that has not worsened yet. He pretty much stayed the same throughout the first two weeks. Then I started to see some hair regrowth on his tail. Very exciting. It was just some stubble, but hey, hair was coming in and I figured that was a good sign - and then hair loss again. I was away for the weekend and my m om took care of them so a few days away, I will able to see more when I came back. He had some more thinning of the hair on his back. I called the vet. They told me that what it probably was is that he is still itchy (a common symptom) and that is why he will get two more shots and not just the one. So I guess to answer your question it took me two weeks to see any real results, but he did not get worse from the time of the first injection. Connor is getting his second shot tomorrow as well as another blood test to make sure everything is okeedokee. I will let you all know how he is doing. Wish him luck! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Amy Winnie (Mom! Pay attention to me. Mom, if you play with Chloe and Connor and ignore me, I'm going to have to poop in the corner....I mean it....look at me, i am the pretty one!) Chloe (Hi mommy, I am your good girl. Hey do you have any old socks I can play with? I promise not to eat them....I am gaining wait now - I don't need to eat socks anymore) Connor (What? Huh? Are you calling me...I can't hear...remember? sniff sniff...I smell cookies.....here I come...thud thud thud...ahhh...cookies....I am so cute) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 5. Subject: time til Lupron has effect From: Linda Iroff Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:49:42 -0400 Tasha I don't know any averages or typical reaction times, but I can talk about Belle. Her vulva was also hugely swollen. Two days after her first 100mcg shot I thought I saw a slight reduction, but it wasn't until about day 5 that I was certain there was a change. Further low doses had no effect (continued fur loss, itchy skin, etc), so she just got the 2mg 4 month shot this weekend. Dr Weiss reports 100% success with symptom reversal at this dose, so I bet you'll start seeing changes by the end of the week. Linda Iroff Oberlin, OH Support the Ferrets Unlimited/Raisin Retreat Ferret Shelter by visiting http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=3585&mid=30146 6. Subject: Update on Thea From: Ron DeBaecke Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Hello all, some may remember my posts about 1 month ago about Thea's inoperable right adrenal. Well, i have some updates... I located an awsome vet. he is Dr.Kupersmith. He is a very ferret knowlegable vet. Anyone in Central NJ or close to it, i highly recommend him! Thea recieved her first lupron shot 3 wks ago. By the end of the first week, the vulva swelling went WAY down.. Its only a little swollen now. She just recieved her second shot yesterday. Dr.Kupersmith says we should see some hair growth within another 3wks.. :-) I know its not a cure, only a cover-up, but if Lupron buys Thea quality time, and a beautiful coat ;-), it is money well spent! Just a note about Dr.Kupersmith, he personally knows Dr.Kathy Johnson-Dalaney(sp?) and confers with her(and Dr.Weiss on occasion).. They try to keep abreast on Lupron/adrenal/etc...If anyone needs the # or address, email me... Thank you all! Signed, A happy ferret dad Ron 7. Subject: Sympathies From: "meagan quinn" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:26:24 EDT Hello all. I am so sorry for the losses all of you have had. I know that people reading this list have sick fuzzies, but it still makes it heart wrentching to read when you see that another fuzzy has been lost. I am so sorry! A for Christine and others who might be feeling guilty (i am not saying you should, just that your note made it sound like you were blaming yourself)--try writing to you baby. I know this seems silly, but I have recomemmended it before and I myself have done it on two occasions. When Nico passed away I was so upset and he was my first fuzzy to die--i sat down, tears and tissues alreay in use and wrote my ferret a letter. I know they can't read. I know he was gone. I just felt better forcing myself to deal with any guilt or pain that I felt instead of sobbing alone in my room or bottling it up. I told nico how much he brought into my life. I re-lived that first week i "aquired" him from the idiot frat guys that starved him, I re-lived the pain of finding out he had a tumor and insulinoma. I deal with the grief that a few days earlier I learned there was more I could have done than my stupid vet thought...all of these feelings of guilt, sadness, happiness and pain were written down. It wasn't the easiest thing to do--but it helped me. I was too attached and was denying that he was going to die. I thought he would be the miracle ferret, but he wasn't. And i didn't get the chance to say goodbye that I wanted. This letter gave me that chance. of course, i told him what I woulnd't forget about him and but i also told him how I wouldn't miss him biting my feet while i sleep. That of course was a lie. I would do anything for him to bite my feet again... well, my quick thought turned into a big one..i just wanted to recommending using words to heal and cope. I am not a great artist/poet/author and i am horrible at putting my feeling into words. Yet I know that I wrote what was in my soul..and that Nico didn't blame me. I buried it with him his many toys and a bag of raisins (the one thing he really wanted and just couldn't have...) I hope this helps someone out there. meagan 8. Subject: Keera/Fezzik From: "meagan quinn" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:37:24 EDT i got so caught up in the last post, I forgot about my update and thanks. i wanted to say thanks to Dr. Karen and everyone that emailed me about keera/fezzik. It was great info to have going to see the vet. I knew what I was tlaking about and the vet was impressed! Does anyone else use Dr. Luckow in the Bronx? I felt he was really good and ultra gentle with her. As far as first impressions go--he is amazing. You know he likes ferrets. I paid more for a history and exam--but i feel that is good. He thinks a lot of her inactivity is the heat. it has been horrible here (and she was very active while outside in the cool air last night, but i blame that on the sprinkler i put her in!) He says he can tell dr. weiss did great surgery (naw! really?) and was very neat. He loves her coat and thinks that is wonderful that she has such anice one considering the adrenal tumor. He says I CAN do a work up if I want. BUT he examined her, said her spleen was 'beautiful' (i didn't know that was possible) and she felt healthy. he doesn't want her to lose weight b/c she was sick and probably still is. he said: i have to remember that she will never be the ferret i had before. I have to come to terms with that. If dr. weiss removed all of the left and over half of the right that there is probably some remaining and therefore she still has a tumor. I have to realize a ferret iwth a tumor will never be as healthy as a ferret with out a tumor. (sigh). I guess I do have to see that. But as anyone that saw her at the ferret show this weekend can attest to: she isn't ultra active anymore. I am thinking of xrays--will that show a tumor if she has one? Her BS was 132 last month. Up from 126. Is that high? I know it is in the norm. range...but she has never been above 120 before. He said everything else sounds perfect. Her glands on her neck are swollen, but they also could be fatty deposits (she is "robust"). He would recommend a biopsy but b/c she is on Pred. that is midleading. what to do what to do?? any advice? Meg ps: fezzik hasn't mounted keera since that incident. I am trying to watch him very closely. As soon as I am sure, we are heading for surgery. unfort, I can't tell if he really is losing toe hair or if i am imagining it. I took a picture and will develop it and compare. Pathetic I know. but i remember dr. weiss said it was a great sign that people often over look. 9. Subject: Thank you for messages for Petey!; what I learned about hidden heart disease Gadzook (vena cava ligation; bi-adrenal) doing good! From: Lynn McIntosh Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:33 Hi. I wanted to say thank you to you kind folks who wrote such heartwarming messages about Petey. They really helped. I won't get them all answered personally, unfortunately, so please accept a great big thank you to you all. I've learned, yet again, that cardiomyopathy can be tricky to diagnose. We should have gotten the ultrasound our vet recommended right away. We went to another vet (ours was out) who agreed with us in thinking it was upper respiratory. Even more, no murmur was ever heard, and the heart appeared normal-sized, even a bit small perhaps, on radiograph. The diagnosis, which fit the symptoms, was bronchitis. Unfortunately, that was secondary to hypertrophic heart disease. Not til a second radiograph was taken a month later was, on comparison, fluid seen around the heart and liver. An ultrasound right off would have given us more chance to buy back some quality time for the sweetest of sweethearts, Petey. :( So we learned something, but at a high price. I think I would also, if in a similar situation, ask our vet, if she agreed it might help, to check with a couple other vets, such as Drs. Weiss and Williams (who has had two or three ferrets with cardio) to compare heart protocols. But, our wonderful, skilled vet said it can take two weeks for meds to work, though in this case Petey was gone in a week. Perhaps a heavier, different protocol up front may have worked. Thus I would ask about a consult, just to check. Anyway, that's, sadly, what I learned. By the time fluid was seen on radiograph, Petey's condition was very advanced. If I suspect heart disease ever again, I'm going staight to ultrasound. The ultrasound can give info that will help with treatment, too, which is important. And, even though this sounded like upper respiratory, as Dr. Bishop said right off, she couldn't tell for sure that it was, or where the breathing difficulty was really coming from. Sigh. It's so hard to know what to do. On a good note, our vena cava ligation boy (sans both adrenals) is doing very, very well. He's on a bit of pediapred and florinef which, in a week and about a half, we'll beging trying to wean him from, one med at a time. If he has to be on then for life, though, that's fine. It's better than facing a blocked urinary tract, which we were. I just hope that there isn't ectopic tissue about somewhere that will continue the problem. He hasn't eaten yet on his own, but is gobbling up chicken soup. Regarding Lupron, he was on 100 mcg per month, so this wasn't enough. >From what I'm hearing male ferrets may need closer to 200 mcg, and Dr. Weiss doses higher for males and females (see his protocol sheet). So, check those doses! Gadook was all fuzzy, but he blocked in a heartbeat with no warning I saw. Soooooo, anyaway... one day at a time! Fuzzy hugs, and thank you all for being there :) Lynn Mc. and the Gang of, sniff. Five (but five is better than four is better than three is better than two is DEFINITELY better than one is better than. :) ---------------- End of FAIML #317 -----------------