From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 6:14 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Subject: FAIML #322; August 11, 1999 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #322; August 11, 1999 1. Jasmine/Lupron... 2. Rustle and insulinoma 3. insulinoma diet and lymphoma question 4. The book is here! 5. Lucky Charm's right adrenalectomy 6. Weaning off Duck Soup 7. Syringe feeding meds 8. Re: FAIML #321; August 8, 1999 (Trekkie) 9. Scales for weighing ferrets 10. Spending versus replacing TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an e-mail. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a good source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Subject: Jasmine/Lupron... From: LDarkes@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:21:46 EDT Hello all, I posted last week about Jasmine's lack of response to the 4 month Lupron injection. One person did respond and wrote to me suggesting that I give it more time (thank you, Wendi!). Another week has passed, so we are now almost three weeks post injection with no visible improvement. Could it be taking this long to take effect?? Is it possible that a higher dose of the 4 month depot is needed? I understood this to be a standard dosage of 2mg, but perhaps it varies among individual ferrets? Please, if you have any ideas or thoughts at all, please let me know. Thanks! Lucie 2. Subject: Rustle and insulinoma Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:23:55 -0400 From: Jennifer McCaskill Hi, everyone! This is my first post to the list, although I've been reading for a couple of months now. Over the last year, 3 of my 4 ferrets have shown signs of insulinoma. When I saw Jennifer's post about Rustle, it reminded me so much of my own little boy, Marvin, that I had to put in my $0.02! Last August, we (my husband and I) noticed that someone was missing the litterbox occasionally, inside as well as outside the cage. Our kids are really good about using the litterbox, so we knew something was wrong. Then one day I saw Marvin trying his best to get into the litterbox, but he just couldn't lift his back legs high enough to get them over the side of the box (the sides were kind of high, but he never had a problem with them before). We also noticed that Marvin didn't really want to play very much; he just came out of his cage, walked over to his favorite afghan, and went back to sleep. Off to the vet we went. Our vet suggested doing bloodwork, and the results weren't too surprising -- his glucose level was low. We started him on prednisone, and he perked up some. After surgery to remove some of the tumors from his pancreas, he improved even more. Now he's on a very low dose of prednisone and is doing great. He plays and wanders all over our 3-story townhouse, which is wonderful to see because he had completely stopped climbing stairs before his surgery. As far as diet goes, our kids also ate kibble (Totally Ferret) with raisins or a bite of banana as an occasional treat. When our vet told us that she suspected Marvin had insulinoma, we cut out the sugary treats. Later, when our oldest, Quincy, started showing signs of it, we tried out several duck soup recipes, and finally settled on the chicken gravy. Now, the kids eat Totally Ferret and get their chicken gravy every night as a supplement. If I were you, Jennifer, I'd have the bloodwork done again. It might cause Rustle a little discomfort, but at least you'll have a better idea of what you and he are up against. Good luck! Jennifer, Quincy, Marvin, Penny, and Xena (the baby of the business!) 3. Subject: insulinoma diet and lymphoma question From: "Vicki L. Henderson" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:12:29 -0400 Is there a diet out there for ferrets with insulinoma that is high in protein and lower in fat? All Buzz will eat is Bob Church's chicken gravy with chicken baby food added to it, and he is packing on weight, alot of weight. This can't be good on him, especially with an enlarged heart. Also, I read in Ferret Central that Lymphoma may be contagious? That it may be caused by a virus, and if so the other ferrets in the group might end up with it also? How true is this? Thank you! -- Vicki L. Henderson-aka-Ferret Fanatic Buzz, Woody, Miss Tizzy, Ginger & General Kaos! The Fearless FLO! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/2373/ Ferret Cross Stitch! http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1760/ ICQ: 11898312 4. Subject: The book is here! From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:27:03 +0000 Folks, Well, okay, not exactly here, but finally available for those looking for the latest in ferret medicine. ESSENTIALS OF PET FERRETS: A Guide for Practitioners is now available via AAHA Press. Phone orders can be made to the (800) 883-6301 7am-5pm MST, $42 for members, $49 for non-members. Thank you for your patience with my commercial interuption - I'm very excited (this is my first book). -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 5. Subject: Lucky Charm's right adrenalectomy From: Linda.Doran@att.net Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 05:37:10 +0000 Hi, everyone. I just got home today from taking Lucky Charm to Colorado State University, where her right adrenalectomy surgery was managed by Dr. Jeffrey Wimsatt. My vet here had recommended one of his colleagues, Dr. Terry Campbell, and I had read about CSU in the Ferret Central FAQ on adrenal disease. I opted to take Lucky Charm to CSU because their approach was to debulk the right adrenal gland rather than ligate the vena cava. Other vets who had conducted the ligation were frank with me about losing roughly 1 in 4 ferrets who undergo the procedure, and a couple of ferret owners shared their very heartbreaking experience of losing ferrets who did not recover from vena cava ligation following two days of intense pain and suffering. After considering all the information I had gathered, my gut was screaming at me not to put Lucky Charm through that or to bear the relatively high risk of losing her. Because she was fairly healthy otherwise, I figured she had a good chance of surviving a conventional debulking of the right adrenal gland, even though it would not result in a cure. It had only been four or five months since her left adrenal was removed, and I was skeptical that the tumor would have grown fast enough to invade the vena cava or that she would have developed enough lateral circulation to make up for it. As it turned out, the right adrenal had invaded the vena cava. While I was in the waiting room of the hospital awaiting the outcome of Lucky Charm's surgery, Dr. Wimsatt informed me of this. He said that with my permission, the veterinary cardiologist conducting the surgery was prepared to use a procedure developed recently in Florida, in which the surgeon cuts into the vena cava, removes the adrenal tissue, and stitches the artery back together. The cardiologist estimated he would be able to restore 60 percent of the blood flow through the vena cava. He had clamped the vena cava with pediatric clamps and Lucky Charm's blood pressure was holding. The hospital had a donor ferret ready to donate blood for a transfusion. I authorized the procedure because it had the potential to result in a permanent cure without completely cutting off the blood flow through the vena cava. Not long after that, Dr. Wimsatt informed me that at one point during the procedure (which, as usual, took a couple of hours), Lucky Charm's blood pressure had dropped precipitously and her heart had nearly stopped. Fortunately, they had her attached to sensors that monitored her blood pressure and heartbeat constantly and they were able to revive her immediately. At first, Dr. Wimsatt was concerned that she might have an underlying heart condition. He later said it was probably the result of obstructing the blood flow through the vena cava. I suspect it was also a result of being under anesthesia for so long, because it is my understanding that people are also at risk for the same reason. I cried a fair amount after hearing the news, afraid that I would lose her, and I didn't sleep much last week. When I visited Lucky Charm the same evening, she was still pretty much out of it. Twenty-four hours after the surgery, her condition had stabilized, and the hospital was ready to move her out of critical care. I requested that Dr. Wimsatt keep Lucky Charm in the critical care unit an extra day, even though it would cost more. The tissue removed during surgery turned out to be a carcinoma and there was not a clear differentiation between neoplastic and normal cells, which means the surgeon probably didn't get all of the cancer cells in the tissue immediately adjacent to the tumor and it is likely to return. The good news is that Lucky Charm did not appear to have concurrent insulinoma, her blood test also showed her glucose levels to be normal, and her sutures are healing nicely. She's eating, her stools are normal, and as of today, the swelling in her vulva is going down. In March, when Lucky Charm's left adrenal was removed, it was analyzed as hyperplastic -- not yet cancerous. Either the right adrenal gland was already involved at the time but this was not apparent when the vet who removed the left adrenal gland made a visual inspection of the right adrenal gland or it became more aggressive after the left adrenal gland was removed. Three months later, her hair had not returned, but the vet saw no need for concern. Several weeks after that, I began looking elsewhere when her vulva became swollen, hardened, and irritated, and he still saw no need for treatment because he thought she seemed fairly healthy otherwise. This evening, I am happy to report that Lucky Charm is recovering nicely from her surgery. She is taking Florinef and Prednisone to maintain her electrolyte levels and Amoxicillin, Metronidazole, and Omeprazole to prevent potentially fatal ulcers caused by Helicobacter and stress following surgery. I arrived at CSU last Monday with a stack of veterinary papers and reports provided by people on this list and little sticky notes labeling the things I wanted to ask about. It turned out I didn't have to ask about any of them; Dr. Wimsatt already knew about the various surgical approaches and risks, the papers written by Dr. Weiss and Dr. Williams and others, the need to conduct a partial pancreatectomy if insulinoma nodules were present, the need to provide treatment to prevent ulcers as well as treatment with Florinef and Prednisone to prevent the ferret from crashing, the possibility of weaning the ferret off the Prednisone later and in some cases even the Florinef under careful supervision, treatment with Lupron if symptoms recur, and the possibility of hidden adrenal tissue that might cause symptoms to return. It was a tremendous relief to know that the vet already knew about these things and not have to worry about whether he would take me seriously or remember them all. He also discussed a couple of pioneering approaches CSU is looking at trying, such as using shunts to gradually close off the vena cava and give other blood vessels time to gradually take over circulation -- apparently, they do this to treat blood vessels in the livers of dogs and cats -- and cryosurgery to kill right adrenal tissue in ferrets that do not have concurrent insulinoma. The treatment was not cheap, but I feel I got my money's worth. I spent about $750 on presurgical assessments, the surgery itself, all the medications, and the hospitalization. It likely would have cost me more to have the surgery done in Albuquerque, and it would not have been nearly as comprehensive. Lucky Charm and I are looking forward to much more quality time together. And we are very grateful to all of you for your help. Linda and Lucky Charm 6. Subject: Weaning off Duck Soup From: Lynne Wooldridge Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 06:01:33 -0500 Dustie, my boy with insulinoma, will only eat duck soup, and this has been the case for the past year or so. Immediately after his operation for spleen removal, adrenal and pancreatic surgery, he ate some kibble at the vet's office during that recovery phase (about a week after the surgery). He has never eaten kibble since. I ordered Totally Ferret and he won't touch it or any other high quality dry foods. He is doing great on duck soup, and since some ferrets won't even eat duck soup well, I am counting myself lucky. The problem comes with trying to feed Dustie during the day. I teach school and was close enough last year to run home and feed him at lunch. I am teaching a distance away now and that won't be possible. I am hoping to be able to take him to school with me and keep him in a cage under my desk (if the teachers that I share a room with agree). 8 hours is a long time between feedings but I have had to do it and Dustie seemed ok. My son said that someone should invent an automatic duck soup dispenser that attaches to the cage like a water bottle! Do we have any inventors out there? *grin* Taking care of our little sick ones is not that easy. . . Lynne 7. Subject: Syringe feeding meds From: "Michael F. Janke" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:47:22 -0400 >6. Subject: any tips on syringe meds? >From: Apollo174@aol.com >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:21:24 EDT >I hope all of you and your fuzzies are doing well. I just was >wondering if anyone has had any luck with any gimmicks syringing >liquid meds to their ferrets. If the medication can be given with food, you might want to try mixing it into a soft food your ferret likes. I've been giving Beasley his prednisone mixed into about 10cc's of his soft diet (baby food and A/D) for quite some time now. It tastes pretty bitter to me, but he gobbles it down. I haven't had to use Proglycem yet, so I don't know if it can/should be given with food. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * A 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation * * Visit our shelter's web site: http://www.miamiferret.org * Visit the Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/FHC 8. Subject: Re: FAIML #321; August 8, 1999 (Trekkie) From: Saunders59@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 00:02:38 EDT Hi everyone, I am writing in response to Marissa Apollo's situation with Trekkie. My 5 year old ferret is on three different heart medications-all liquid. I had them compounded. Can you imagine pilling a ferret? Critter developed cardiomyopathy last December. The veterinarian I work started him on Enacard, Lasix and Cardoxin-LX. Every morning about the same time I give him his medication. I scruff him and put the syringe in the corner of his mouth and give him his meds slowly. After we are done I always give him a treat. He stands at my feet waiting for it. It is his reward. If I have to give him Baytril for his E.C.E., which is bitter, I give a non bitter one, then quickly give him the Baytril and then a non bitter one again. He doesn't seem to mind it because his mouth is already coated with the good tasting medication. There are pharmacys that will compound pills and even add a flavor to the meds, like chicken, fish etc. Maybe try that route. Critter has also been diagnosed with adrenal gland disease. He is on the Lupron injections also. He is a high risk patient to be put under anesthetic because of his heart condition. He is doing well on Lupron and is regrowing his hair!! Good luck with Trekkie. 9. Subject: Scales for weighing ferrets From: "Silver Eagle" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 01:20:05 -0400 Hi all and especially Steve and Becky I too have an adrenal baby and my concern over weght loss being the first sign of illness in my babies I went on a mission to find the perfect scale. It took me months to find one, but I knew exactly what I wanted. I refused to buy anything, until I found my perfect scale. Well, I found it. It is a Home Hardware brand kitchen type scale. It weighs uo to 10 kg or 22 lbs. It has both scales on it. It has the smaller weights ( grams and ounces ) well marked and easy to read. The top were the food/ ferrets sits while you weigh it, is a flat tray. My ferrets will sit very quietly and still while I read their weight. Well OK, I do have to give them ferretone through an eyedropper, but it does keep them still enough. I am certain that I getting an accurate weight on my guys. The cost was about $25, and well worth it in my opinion. I have since seen similar scales in restaurant supply stores and in specialized kitchen?gormet shops. The flat weighing area was the selling pointof my scale and I have not been disappointed with it. Happy scale hunting! Sally St. Germain and her 10 "Little Saints." Hi.....my name is Sally.....I am a ferret-a-holic!!!!! 10. Subject: Spending versus replacing From: ela.heyn@db.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:46:18 -0400 Becky, I thought your answer to your son about why you spend for veterinary care versus replacing the animal at a lower cost was absolutely perfect. Maybe it would help if you'd point out to him that you always provided *him* with medical care when he was a child, regardless of the cost .. even though you could have conceived another child for *free*. Some things just don't boil down to the pure economics of the situation. (Heck, if they did, nobody would ever have kids or pets ... neither one is exactly very cost effective! ;->) Hugs to you and the fuzzies. - Ela Ela Heyn Harborside Mail Stop 3024 201-860-3336 ela.heyn@db.com ------------------- End of FAIML #322 -------------------