From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 12:27 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #369; Dec. 29, 1999 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #369; Dec. 29, 1999 1. Urgent news on patch 2. Introduction 3. JJ and my X-mas present ferret 4. Update Cody & Catie Still Feeling Yucky 5. diarrhea/told to give no food 6. Patch; Cleopatra; Oliver 7. Distemper 8. Distemper 9. Change of email address The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Urgent news on patch From: dagger4u@home.com Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 23:53:00 -0800 2nd posting: I obviously dont have alot of time to answer each person individually so I will try in one post to answer many questions that were asked of me: I bought this ferret at the animal shelter, vaccination history unknown in August 99. He had his vaccinations in October 99. He was totally healthy, running around etc, in fact, he ran circles around the others. (i have 4 others now, but at the time I got him, i only had 3) Nothing has changed in his routine stress wise. We did get another ferret in October. (When we were getting Patch's vaccinations, we heard of one at the animal shelter) He has been around her since October and they get along very well. No changes in food, or cages, or playtime. The lab work was done on the 17 December. Here's the results: WBC 5.1 (4-18.2), Hematocrit 56 (42-55, so just very slightly high) 0 Baso, 0 Eos,0 Bands, 3621 Polys, 1326 Lymph, 153 Monos, Platelet adequate. Glucose 95 (65-130), BUN 20 (12-40), Calcium 9.7 (9.1-11), Total protein 5.8 (5.2-7.5), Albumin 3.6 (2.9-4.4), ALT 126 (64-250), AST 96 (23-99) X-rays were negative for blockage (although I am sure there is still the chance) No xrays of the skull or anything. As far as I can tell, there was no injury of any kind to his head or even his body, he didn't fall or run into anything etc etc. Mouth is pink, looks good, moist, no ulcerations, "gum chewing behavior" still happening though. He can't stand Pepto. Someone stated Pepid A/C..is this healthy?? I know Kaopectate is ok. Havent' given him that. No excessive salivating or crusty mouth or nose. Actually nose is slightly runny, clear fluid, not crusting, very mild, happens only alittle bit. Eating ok, in fact he's eating quite a bit, however, today (28th) I noticed he didn't drink much even though he ate alot (i watched him eat for 15 minutes straight, no drinking the whole time.) When he finished eating, he went back to bed. I tried giving him water, and he struggled which is very odd for him. He has been drinking very well. His hind end is gaunt. It seems as though he can see better than when he was in the vets' on the 19 or so. I can't say he is running into things and he can definitely see my hand as he follows it. (he did not follow the hand while at the vets and he ran into the garbage can, this was on the 19) I did give him lots of Laxatone to try to get anything out just in case of blockage on the 16th before I took him to any vets. I have given him just alittle Nutrical. That wa on the 17th, but he hasn't had any since. I seem to be getting basically 2-3 diagnosises from people: 1)Insulionoma 2)Ulcer/Irritable bowel 3)possible stroke? Someone brought up jaundice. What does that look like? Up until about1 month ago (before this started) his coat was not really good looking. Sort of sparce and he shed alot. No winter fur or fat. Very lean and muscular. When I examined him tonight, his fur actually looks alot better. It's getting fuller, softer, however, it's getting this weird um, yellowish/orangish tint to it. Almost like the champagne color of a regular ferret. He is a very young ferret. As I type this, it's 1130 pm. I plan on taking some sort of action within the next 2 days, no later than the 30th. My next course of action is unknown. I need to know specifics. 1)What kind of blood test to run for Insulionoma (fasting glucose I figure, but how many hours and are there any other tests that should be done specifically for that? 2)Should xrays of the head be done? 3)What tests are done to determine an ulcer? If there aren't any tests, should I just start treating as if it's an ulcer? What sort of treatment? only kaopectate or combo of things? How do you get rid of an ulcer? 4) Exploratory surgery as a last resort I guess. Any ideas about that would be helpful. I appreciate all of your kind responses and wish I could answer individually. I am so very grateful to everyone Sincerely, KIM 2. Introduction From: "Kim Elias" Date sent: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:46:37 -0500 Thank you for the kind welcome to your group. My name is Kim Elias and I am owned heart and soul by six sweet fuzzies. I may have met some of you over the last few months at some of the area ferret shows in Joliet IL and Cincinnati OH. I was there as Julie Fossa's sidekick. She has been the main spark of my interest in ferrets. We adopted two from her last March. They are both Marshall ferrets and one of them has insulinoma. He was diagnosed early last summer. We learned very quickly how little the area vets actually know versus what they will tell you they think they know. If it had been left to the vet instead of knowledgable people like yourselves, they would have put my baby to sleep. We have had several other setbacks with the other ferrets we obtained such as bleeding ulcers, a very bad case of congestion and a tail that got crimped somewhere in transit before the ferret got to me. Her tail is about 3/4" shorter than it used to be!! If I hadn't been able to get the much needed answers through Julie and the network, I would have been lost. Thank you all very much!!!! Kim at doublee@bright.net . 3. JJ and my X-mas present ferret Date sent: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:50:05 -0800 From: "Amy C. Dempsey" On Christmas eve, my little JJ (5 year old male) suddenly just stopped eating. I panicked and took him to the vet. X-rays showed nothing but his spleen was huge. I remembered him jumping off a carrier two days prior and thinking that he landing on the hard side but he look as if he was okay. The vet had me nurse him through the weekend and bring him in Monday. He would not eat all weekend so I force fed him pedilyte mixed with Nutrical. Monday the X-rays showed an empty stomach and lots of gas. I am thinking blockage - Tuesday they openned him up - his spleen was huge and bruised, it was so large and swollen it was pushing on his stomach and intestines so out it came. While the vet was in there I had her look at the adrenal glands since JJ had shown hairloss last year on his lower back - we had been planning on doing a Tennessee panel on them later this year anyway. Both adrenal glands look normal as did everything else. He's still not getting around yet but he is eating and I sure am a relieve mom. Odie who turned 9 last September, has slept under the Christmas tree since we put it up. First she slept amoung the presents and now she rolls up in the x-mas tree skirt. I guess she thinks she's a X-mas present. I certianly think she is!!! She has had insolinuma for over a year, she's been on predisone and resently weve added proglycem, she is running all over the house like a young kit again. Amy and her 6 wonderful fur snakes 4. Update Cody & Catie Still Feeling Yucky From: "JLO" Date sent: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:45:58 -0600 Thanks for everyone sending me messages of encouragement and ideas for feeding. Yesterday the vet gave gentomycin shot and antibiotic pill which tastes awful. We are working through it and just trying to keep hydrated and some food moving through. Vet also gave AD and I also give Gerber turkey. Catie is voluntarily licking this off my finger but Cody runs every time I get near him. He is so independant and thinks he can get through this on his own. But I will be good owner and continue to ruin his rampages by forcing him to eat; thankfully he is drinking. Stools are more formed but still green/yucky/seedy looking. I welcome any one else's advice, comments and suggestions. Kit has been secluded until this mess passes! Happy millennium to all the fuzzies in the world! 5. diarrhea/told to give no food From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:38:18 +0000 Hi, Let's see if I can help with this one. > SNIP> > My other two ferrets 3 & 2 1/2 year olds have been very healthy and not shown > any signs of any disease (unless being spoiled rotten is a disease). We just > got an albino kit for Christmas. Bad news for my two ferrets who ruled the > house...they grab her by the head and neck and drag her around. I immediately > separated them to different rooms and these two now have been on a weeklong > quest to find the new intruder! Bitter apple on the neck of the new ferret helps, as does standing by with a water gun to discourage the biters. > Several days after the introduction - little girl Caty begin vomiting and > having green mucous diarreah. Big boy Cody just has mushy green diarreah. So > off to the vet we go. She sampled stool and gave each a shot that made them > sleepy and said no food; just water for 24 hours. Next day, another stool > sample, another shot and again said no food. They kept looking into the empty > food bowl and looking at me as if I were starving them. The next day (now > basically 4 days with out food - gosh how terribly cruel this seems...) she > said they could eat this prescription canned cat food as fevers were down and > no more vomiting and stools were returning to normal. (She really dried them > up from both ends). Standard advice in small animal medicine is to keep vomiting animals off food for 24 hours. I do not follow this restriction with ferrets beyond 12 hours myself. > Now - you didn't think they would just eat this stuff?... they eat totally > ferret. So we tried spoon, syringe, mixing with chicken baby food, shoving, > stuffing, hiding, treating and to no avail they maybe ate 2 teaspoonsful on > Christmas eve. I decided to just give them their food back; now they won't > touch it! And they still amble around looking for that fuzzy they think has > made them feel bad, eaten all their food and stolen some of their favorite > toys (as well as taking valuable quality time from ferret frenzied owners). If you crush the Totally Ferret into powder, make it into a paste with ferretone and rub it on their gums, they should go back to it in a couple days. Keep some available at all times. Hope this helps, -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 6. Patch; Cleopatra; Oliver From: Melissa Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:31:40 -0500 >1. Urgent: Patch >From: dagger4u@home.com >Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:59:25 -0800 > >Ok, here's the timeline. On the 17th December, my wired weasel, Patch, began >having diarrea, and licking his chops, (like chewing bubble gum, alot of >smacking.) A big muscle on the top of his head would twich while this "chewing >gum" behavior happened. That's called "grinding his teeth". They do it when they have abdominal pain. The "licking his chops" is probably swallowing. They do that when they're nauseaus. Has anything happened recently that could stress Patch? A move? New ferret? Change in routine? Have you or he been around any other ferrets recently? Check http://www.ferretcentral.org and read the medical FAQs for ECE (which I don't think he has) and for Helicobacter/Ulcers (which I think he might have). Also check the FAQ for Insulinoma (which can cause disorientation and nausea). I'm a little concerned about your vets. Do you have confidence in them? Are they experienced w/ ferrets? Checking for an obstruction was a good thing to do. So was taking blood. Prescribing Ammoxy was a good start as well. I'd stick with vet #1. Vet #2 jumping to the distemper conclusion sounds less knowledgable about common ferret problems. My vote is to try treating for Helicobacter which will involve adding a couple more meds to the ammoxy for a few weeks. Print out the info from the FAQs and bring it to vet #1. You might also want to have vet #1 look at a copy of the xrays and get a 2nd opinion on them. Good luck. -Melissa (not a vet) >3. Cleopatra losing tail fur and Oliver update >From: "Emily Moon" >Date sent: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:17:31 -0800 >..... If a female ferret is losing tail >fur, one of the first signs of adrenal disease, is it safe to just go in >and do >exploratory surgery? Do we have to get an ultrasound? She does not have any >other sign of adrenal problems (at lease not that my experience-trained eye can >see). > >I am bringing her to the vet on the 3rd. Is there a blood test the vet can do >to determine if Cleo has a problem? There is something called the "Tenessee panel" which looks for hormone levels consistent w/ adrenal disease. But I think that's expensive too. I think (and I'm not a vet) that if the other symptoms are there (baldness etc.) and there's no other explanation for it (diet, blackheads, stress etc.), then adrenal would be a good guess. Before they had the Tenessee panel (way back in the dark ages...!), my vet said we *could* do an ultrasound, but even if it showed nothing, she'd still want to go in. So I said "then why bother with the ultrasound?" -so we didn't do it! ;) -Just my opinion. If you're probably going to "go in" regardless of the ultrasound, and if the ultrasound technicians are inexperienced w/ ferrets, then there's not much point on spending money on it. - again just MHO. -Melissa ________________________________ http://members.aol.com/NYCFerrets http://home.att.net/~The_Ferrets _________________________________ 7. Distemper From: "Michael F. Janke" Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 21:44:47 -0500 > 1. Urgent: Patch > From: dagger4u@home.com > Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:59:25 -0800 > > Ok, here's the timeline. On the 17th December, my wired weasel, > Patch, began > having diarrea, and licking his chops, (like chewing bubble gum, alot of > smacking.) A big muscle on the top of his head would twich while > this "chewing > gum" behavior happened. He became sort of lethargic. It sounds like Patch is nauseated, but it seems his actions are a little over exaggerated for that. Your vet is in the best position to tell what's going on, but it doesn't sound like distemper. If you're interested, just the other day I put up a page on canine distemper in ferrets on my adrenal/insulinoma website. It lists the various symptoms. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * A 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation * * Shelter web site: http://www.miamiferret.org * Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc 8. Distemper From: lynne wooldridge Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:54:39 -0600 When I read the post about the possibility of Patch having distemper, it really scared me. I have not given Dustie his distemper vacination because of possible immunity problems and reactions to the vacination. Should I? Dustie has ece and has been battling this. He is often at my vet's office. I am afraid that he will now get distemper, and in fact, he has been shaking like a little leaf for the past week and we don't know what it is. Does anyone have any information on this? Lynne 9. Change of email address From: "shari" Date sent: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:26:58 -0000 Lynn and Readers, Please note that as of January 5, 2000 my email address will change from ianjenn@rapidnet.com to: ian@rapidnet.com We kept having "fatal error" problems and I couldn't download, so, hopefully this will change with the address switch. Thanks Lynn for your consistant, caring, informative, mailings to us all. It means alot to me to be able to read about these diseases and know there is help right around the corner!!!! God bless you! Shari and her "1/2 dozen + 1 dookers" ----------------------- End of FAIML #369 -------------------------