From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:33 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #371; Jan. 3, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #371; Jan.3, 2000 1. Intro. and Missy Has Bloody Stool 2. Need Input 3. Vaccines, Patch 4. Scamp, Zipper, Bobbi Pockets, Desiree 5. Happy New Year My Ferret Friends @->->- 6. Long Overdue Update on Gaoth The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Intro. and Missy Has Bloody Stool From: "shari" Date sent: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:44:09 -0000 Dear FAIML and Lynn, Happy New Year to all and my prayer is that all your ferret babies will remain well and all who are under doc supervision will be healed and the parents of all babies are hanging in there. You all are in my thoughts and heart. If I never introduced myself...I am now, briefly. Shari Bradstream, live in Rapid City, SD. Have the priviledge to care for and love 7 babies ages 4 months to 4 years. Missy Moo-Moo, Lilly P., Fizzy Fat-Boy, Ricki Tiki, Knickers, Loo-Loo Belle, and Chipster are my fur-kids. 3 hooman-boys and 1 patient husband, 1 large 17 hand equine, 2 Border Collies, and 2 stinky kitties(our teasing name for them). I just lost my Moosie-Caboosie this last October 21 from splenomegoly. I miss him terribly. There'll never be another Moosie. Here is my crisis (besides 4 of 7 having bad, bad colds & under Doc supervision): Missy, was a little dehydrated tonite, I let her out to play and she ran over to the corner of my bedroom and she pooped blood. Dear Lord in Heaven, I almost pooped "mine" and took her immediately to the vet and they did x-rays and didn't see anything except the spleen being "very slightly" larger than "normal". The Doc suggested she might have ingested something that irritated her bowel and prescribed 2 antibiotics, gave her 30 cc of SQ fluids, and Pepto-Bismol. Not better or more blood, call him tomorrow. My question is this then - can her spleen or adrenals be involved in any way? Could her "slightly"(what exactly does that word mean here?) enlarged spleen be causing problems? Hope I can get some ideas from you guys. I really appreciate all your posts and your positive attitudes. I am learning lots from your knowledge. Thank you ahead of time for being patient with this long laborious post! Shari and her "1/2 dozen + 1 dookers" 2. Need Input From: GRFerrets@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:02:33 EST Hi Katharine, I am also a wildlife rehabber so perhaps I can give you a better insight. I have always rehabbed MI mammals which include raccoons. There are several things I'd love to share with you about raccoons. If you'd like to talk, please eMail me privately. If I were in your position, having a ferret, cat, or dog with a compromised immune system, I would not even consider bringing in a raccoon - baby or adult. I also would not bring strays into the house. There is always the possibility that the animal has distemper and since it is airborne, if it enters your home, there is a good chance your ferret will be exposed. You are right, the squirrels and opossums do not pose either a rabies or a distemper risk, so they should remain safe to work with. I would be most concerned about raccoons (many, many carry distemper), skunks, foxes, coyotes, and any cats you may work with (ie. bobcats, and lynx). All are a risk for distemper (canine or feline). The only reason I would be concerned about feline distemper is that it is related to parvo and corona. A fairly recent study has found that ECE is a corona virus. Your ferret definitely does NOT need to deal with ECE while undergoing chemo. As for delaying distemper vaccination, that may not be a problem. In dogs and cats, they don't know for sure that a yearly booster is necessary (they also don't know that it's unnecessary). It may be that once the animal has had the full series as a baby, that it is actually immune for life. They just don't know so they vaccinate annually just to be safe. I would imagine the same is true for ferrets. I would probably delay the vaccination. The ferret may be more likely to get the disease from the vaccine since her immune system is currently compromised. I hope this helps! Kim (West Michigan Wildlife Rescue) GRFerrets@aol.com In a message dated 12/31/99 7:12:33 PM, faiml@uswest.net writes: >Here's my concern. She is due for her annual vaccinations in January. >Her vet wants to hold off so as not to put any more pressure on her >system. I'm not so concerned about the rabies vaccination but not doing >the distemper vaccination is bothering me. She's not really exposed to >other ferrets but does go to the vets' office once a week for her chemo >treatments. And, of course, her system is quite compromised while >undergoing chemo. >In addition, I raise orphaned wildlife babies until they're ready to be >released. I primarily do possums and squirrels, neither of which is a >distemper risk (or rabies either, for that matter). I do plan, however, >to start raising baby raccoons in the near future. Raccoons can >contract rabies and distemper. I have had the complete pre-exposure >rabies series. I'm protected, but will Lily be? Should I refuse baby >raccoons (and other rabies prone animals) as a protective measure for >Lily? There are others who can raise them. The ferrets don't come in >direct contact with any of the baby wildlife but they're in the same >house. > >I'm really in a quandary (sp?) about this and would love some input. > >Katharine 3. Vaccines, Patch From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date sent: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:09:07 +0000 Katherine, > SNIP>> > Here's my concern. She is due for her annual vaccinations in January. > Her vet wants to hold off so as not to put any more pressure on her > system. I'm not so concerned about the rabies vaccination but not doing > the distemper vaccination is bothering me. She's not really exposed to > other ferrets but does go to the vets' office once a week for her chemo > treatments. And, of course, her system is quite compromised while > undergoing chemo. Her white cell count is staying at around 4000. That > is very good; 2000 is when you start to worry and have to suspend > treatment until the count rises again. She has a CBC prior to each IV > chemo treatment (poor baby). > Well, that probably is not good enough to provide immunity in response to the vaccine. That would explain why your vet would prefer to hold off. > In addition, I raise orphaned wildlife babies until they're ready to be > released. I primarily do possums and squirrels, neither of which is a > distemper risk (or rabies either, for that matter). I do plan, however, > to start raising baby raccoons in the near future. Raccoons can > contract rabies and distemper. I have had the complete pre-exposure > rabies series. I'm protected, but will Lily be? Should I refuse baby > raccoons (and other rabies prone animals) as a protective measure for > Lily? I wouldn't worry about the rabies, as that has to have blood contact for transmission. I would worry about the distemper issue, however, especially with raccoons. There are others who can raise them. The ferrets don't come in > direct contact with any of the baby wildlife but they're in the same > house. If you 1) avoid the raccoons and 2) wash well after you are done with the wildlife (which I expect you already are) you will probably be fine. However, you can also ask you vet about a distemper titer (I think United Vaccine does them) to check on her immunity. If she comes back with a good titer, you can skip the vaccine with no worries for this year. Good luck. Kim, >SNIP> > Thanks for all the ideas. Please keep them coming. I would like to know > specifically are there any other tests besides the fasting glucose that > should be done. What about xrays of the head to r/o tumor? Is this way > off? The neuro problems have me concerned. One day he can see, and the > next he has problems. Are there ways to test for ulcer, or is it just > guesswork? Agggg, i am talking in circles again, forgive me. I guess I > am just worried that I have missed something. It would be a good idea to do a complete blood chemistry if you can get the blood. That way you can see if the liver or kidneys have been effected/are causing the problem. Liver problems in particular can cause neurologic problems. A whole body xray (not just the skull)would probably be a good idea as well. -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 4. Scamp, Zipper, Bobbi Pockets, Desiree From: teckart@oznet.ksu.edu Date sent: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:16:28 -0600 Happy New Year to all! Wishing everyone a happy, healthy, and prosperous (financially and emotionally) new year. Zipper was our vena cava ligation I think in April this year. She died December 23 from heart disease. She was 7 1/2 yrs old. Bobbi Pockets had surgery last Tuesday. She had tumors taken from her pancreas and stomach and her spleen removed. She died shortly after surgery. Bobbi was 5 1/2 yrs old, and her parents came from an exotic animal auction here in Kansas. She wasn't an early spay. Desiree had adrenal surgery and her left was removed. She is recovering well. She is an older girl that had adrenal problems for over a year. She was just recently given to me and I scheduled her surgery as soon as possible. She is Ezzie come back. She cleans me and chuckles and doesn't like other ferrets, just like my Ezzie. Ezzie, Dezzie, hmmmm. Scamp has a tumor in the lining of his stomach that has fingers on it and is not removable. Larry did remove his left adrenal and pancreatic tumors though. Scamp isn't going to be with us long but we will do our best to keep him comfortable for the time he has left. I bought a month supply of Casodex. Compounded it was $90. Wow. When I spoke with Dr. Weiss he said it was less expensive than Lupron but for our first month it wasn't. I was shocked. Guess I should have asked the price first. Oh well. I'll give it a try. Spook is adrenal. He has the mating behavior. Jackie has insulinoma, adrenal, and lympho. These are the two that I was going to start on medication. I may give Jackie the Casodex and go with Lysodren for Spook. Oh, Andy is loosing fur too. So two, possibly three adrenal surgeries in the future. Hugs to all. tle Troy Lynn Eckart Ferret Family Services http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~sprite/ffs.html http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/5481/ Please sign up to support our charity http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=46&mid=58395 5. Happy New Year My Ferret Friends @->->- From: "Jadesun" Date sent: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:05:15 -0400 Hi my ferret loving friends. I want to wish you all a very, very Happy New Year, and I still have to get a post together and thank each and every one of you for your condolences and support for the loss of my Jade Elaine :o) You all have been wonderful. Here is something amazing, (well for me anyway) that has happened on New Year's Eve :o) First let me tell you a little about Amber- Lynn, it's leads up to what she did for me :o) I haven't let Amber-Lynn in my closet. That was "Jade's Lair". I just don't have the heart to let her in there, not just yet. Everything is still in the closet just the "exact" same order that Jader left it. In his last few days, he took 5 jingle balls in there. His afghan is in there too. New Years Eve was nice and quiet at home. Oh how I wish that Jade were here to spend New Years with me. I wanted that so much, what a milestone it would have been for the both of us. I wore my oversized bunnyhug (aka sweatshirt with a hood.) It was a Christmas present from Jader in '98. He used to love going for walks and being in the hood :o) This may sound silly to you, but Jade was in my hood anyways :o) I put the little velvet pouch (his remains) in my hood. Ok, in my kitchen the ferrets can literally "get underneath" my cupboards. There is a ball in there. It came with the house I guess. I could always hear Jade, Daisy and Amber take their turns at noseing it around, but none of them would ever bring it out. I saw the ball a few years back, it was a red white and blue ball, about the size of a "boulder marble". About 2 years ago Jade stuck his head out with the ball in his mouth, but the little gaffer wouldn't bring it out. He left it underneath the cupboard. That was the first and last time that I had ever seen the ball. I've wanted that ball more and more especially since his death and there was absoultely no way that I could get the ball, short of ripping out the cupboards. I was sitting in the kitchen with Jade's remains in my hood, just thinking about how much I would have loved him to bring in 2000 with me. Your not going to believe this, but Amber-Lynn went in under the cupboard and brought the ball out!!! I put it in my hood with Jader. Of all days for Amber bring the ball to me, New Years Eve. Coincidence? I don't think so, she knew...... Come the countdown, I had Jader & the ball in my hood, Daisy in my right hand and Amber-Lynn in my left hand. It was wonderful :o) I was happy, more happy than I have been in a long time. PS: I have opened Jade's Lair (closet) to Amber-Lynn. She loves it in there :o) Jadesun, Dai Mai n' Amber-Lynn terribly missing Jade Elaine :o( http://www3.nbnet.nb.ca/jadesun @->->- 6. Long Overdue Update on Gaoth From: WhyNotFert@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 03:59:36 EST Please note: This update is NOT to tell everyone to feed the Gravy to their ferrets. NO diet or supplement - of whatever kind - is a substitute for good medical care, including surgery and/or medications where appropriate. But a good diet, whether kibbled or homemade, can support the other care you provide, while a poor diet can undermine it. Recap: Gaoth (pron. "gwee") is a 5 year old non-MF sprite. Her left adrenal was removed in 1996; her right in 1998. In October 1998, Gaoth started showing classic insulinoma symptoms. Because she'd had a difficult time recovering from the second adrenalectomy a few months before, & she'd never really been strong or robust, Dr. Klein and I decided to not put her through a third surgery. By December, we'd had to increase her pred dose to 1.0 ml/BID, and she'd dropped from 1.5 lbs to 0.98 lbs. She was sleeping constantly, felt "fragile" when I picked her up, and I was resigned to losing her soon. Right before Christmas 1998, Bob Church posted his idea for chicken gravy made from whole pureed chicken, bones and all. I figured it wouldn't hurt to try, since Gaoth loved Duck Soup (it was what she was living on by that time) and made up a batch on January 2, 1999. I started giving her the Gravy daily in addition to her regular kibble. After a couple weeks Dr. Klein and I were both surprised - her glucose had jumped almost 20 points, and her weight was increasing! After 2 months on the Gravy, we were able to decrease her pred gradually to only 0.1 ml/BID, with her glucose stable in the low end of normal. Late summer we had to increase her pred to 0.2 ml/BID, but she was otherwise doing well. December, she had a bad "episode" and we had to increase her pred again, to 0.4 ml/BID. Her weight right now is just under 2 lbs, she still attacks my toes and climbs up the inside of my pants legs, still grabs the boys (who outweigh her more than 2-1) by the ears to make them be "bed-warmers" for her.... We don't know how much longer she has, but every day since last New Year's has been a precious gift. I know that she still has insulinoma... and that it will win eventually. The Gravy is NOT a cure. But, it has helped her to regulate her own metabolism better, so that she can do well with less medication than she would have needed otherwise. Nothing special in the Gravy - it's just an easily digested, nutritionally balanced diet without a lot of additives, and almost no grain/fiber. But as my Dad-in-Law, who's a Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Nutrition and Toxicology says, a diet appropriate to its' metabolism/age/overall health plays a very important role in how an organism is able to deal with fluctuations and "glitches" in its' metabolism. After all, how many of us *haven't* seen - or heard of - an improvement in the health and general condition of a ferret that was weaned off of a cheap cat food onto a better, higher-protein kibble? But Gaoth is still with me, and she's still very much "Gaoth" - and I have another reason to celebrate the New Year. May the best of last year be the worst of this next. My prayers and thoughts are with those who are hurting right now. Carla Smith <>< WhyNot? Ferrets http://www.whynotferrets.com ICQ: 29478475 member, Rio Grande Domestic Ferret Club, El Paso, TX "Every pet deserves to be loved, and to have someone cry over them when they're gone." ----------------------- End of FAIML #371 -------------------------