From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 2:35 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #373; Jan. 6, 2000: Includes Urgent Post Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #373; Jan. 6, 2000 Hi there. I'm sending out one post market urgent tonight, and the replies for Bandit and Michele. There were more messages but I won't be able to get them out until tomorrow. Lynn 1. Urgent Post - Has Anyone Experienced Neurological Problems? 2. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! (already sent out this morning) 3. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 4. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 5. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 6. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 7. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 8. Reply: Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! 9. Bandit thanks all of you :>) The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Urgent Post - Has Anyone Experienced Neurological Problems? From: "Mary Rogers" Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 9:01:44 -0600 My Wheeler has tremors in his front legs. We took him to the vet yesterday. X- ray negative on thoracic area, 4th vertebrae, which seemed sensitive. No deficiency of vitamins or calcium evident as front legs only are affected. Temp OK, weight loss of 1100 to 900 grams in 7 months. He shows signs of hind leg flimsiness (probably to compensate for front?). He has trouble walking because of this and crawls around. I noticed some changes in him in the last couple of weeks like sleeping more and flimsy in the rear, but just in the last couple of days showed signs of the front leg tremors. We've only had him a little over a year and he's not quite 6 yrs old yet, a MF. He's had adrenal surgery and a cyst or something removed prior to us adopting him. He has not fallen or anything like that since we've had him. I'm sure something would have showed up on the X-rays if he had an accident prior to us adopting him. He's pretty much always been a sleeper. I think he must have been an only ferret, but gets along with most of the rest of the gang. Our vet also drew blood so it will be a few days before we know if that turns up anything. Seems to be eating OK (probably not enough with the weight loss), poop is OK, and I'm supplementing him with duck soup twice a day loaded with vitamins in the mean time. Have any of you experienced this before? My vet is stumped, another mystery illness. I'd really appreciate any helpful info you can give us at this point! I've been so upset and hoping we don't have to put him to sleep! Thanks, Mary and The 15 Munchkins Chico, Sadie, Harley, Wheeler, Daisy, Woozel, Pooh, Oliver, Funny, Buffy, Bootsie, Summer, Emily, Fruity, and Scooter Rowdy and Tunny-Bear waiting at the Bridge Chance, GG, Simon, Lucy (cats), Corkey (3-legged dog and ferret wanna-be) Mary Rogers Executive Administrative Associate for Ed Sandlin AVP-Business Product Management 972-718-6251 2. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! (already sent this morning) From: "Michele" Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:47:00 -0500 Hi all my fellow ferret lovers, I am sorry I dont post alot but was on vacation for my daughter's wedding this past week..I came home to find that my Bandit who was just diagnosed with insulinoma this past November had a seizure while at the shelter he was staying in and now late yesterday afternoon he had one while I was home.. I immeadiatley called my vet and the technichian informed me the vet wants to try a new and very expensive medication.. I was not told the name and was just told it would be over $130 for one single bottle.. I was so concerned over Bandit having a seizure I asked if I could increast the prednisone from .5 'cc's to . 6 cc's as the vet told me the dosage can be increased and I just had to call to let him know and now I am told not to ..I do not have that kind of money right now and the vet told the technician he doesnt even know if it will help bandit..What do I do?? Do I speak to the vet and tell him the truth? I dont have that kind of money? and will I make myself appear cheap and heartless when I am NOT like that?? I was crying when I called the vet yesterday as Bandit was having a seuzire..all I called for was to make sure I could increase his dosage..he did that for the last seizure this past december..I am sick over this decision. what does one do when they are out of moeny they thought would last longer then 5 months?? I saved up $1,000 and now its all gone ..It was used for my ferrets that needed medical testing done..and a surgery that the old vet did this past November... Please if anyone has ever had to go thru this heartwrenching ordeal.please let me know.. I do appreciate all of your love and support here.. Michele and Bandit ~To touch someone....You must first touch their heart~ 3. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: AFERRETVET@cs.com Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:28:03 EST Hi Michele, There are 2 medicines to control the blood sugar level in ferrets with insulinoma: Pediapred (prednisone) and Proglycem( diazoxide). The dosage of Pediapred is 0.5 to 2+ mg/kg 2 times a day . It sounds like you are giving 0.5mg ( 0.5cc.) If you can not afford Proglycem then increasing the pediapred is your best option. Yes, you should tell your vet that you can not afford the $130 bottle of Proglycem. Believe me, we hear that all the time and no one will think badly of you. Also remember to have your ferret's food available 24 hours a day and avoid high sugar items like : candy, cerals,etc. Marshall's ferret food may be the best choice of food because it does not have rice as its source of carbohydrates. When the ferret is showing signs of hypoglycemia you can give simple sugars like honey, karo syrup, pancake syrup, or nutracal to try to prevent seizures. For treats you can give cooked meat items( no bones), or A /D food. Jerry Murray, DVM. Animal Clinic of Farmers Branch 4. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:30:55 +0000 Michele, ctually, I would speak to the vet and ask why he changed his mind about increasing the pred. Did he recheck the blood glucose? I've given amazing increases in pred for insulinoma kids where proglycem was just out of reach of the pocket, with fair to good results. I would just ask to hold off on adding a separate drug if possible. -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 5. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: "Michael F. Janke" Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:25:25 -0500 Michele, It seems like you should be able to increase the pred dosage, but only your vet knows for sure. Prednisone comes in different forms and it depends on what you use. There's pedia-pred, which I believe is 5mg/5ml and there's prelone syrup. You probably wouldn't know the difference between prelone and pedia- pred except the prelone has a very slight pinkish tint. I know that prelone is available in 5mg/5ml but also in 15mg/5ml, so that one is three times the strength. There may be other levels of concentration, but those are the two I know of. I've used both, but naturally cut the dosage by 1/3 when using the 15mg/5ml version. There may be other liquid forms of prednisone, but those are the two I know of. So first you need to know exactly how much pred you're giving Bandit in terms of milligrams. According to "Ferrets, Rabbits and Rodents - Clinical Medicine and Surgery," you can give between 0.5 - 2.0 mg per kilogram (2.2 lbs), twice a day. Maybe my math's not great, but the way I figure it, if you're giving 0.5ml of 5mg/5ml (1mg per ml), you're giving Bandit 0.5mg of pred and I don't see why your vet won't increase the dosage. But your vet knows best and if you don't feel he's doing the right thing, it's time for a second opinion. If the "new" medication he's speaking of is Diazoxide (Proglycem) then it's nothing new. The price sounds about right to indicate that's what he's talking about, though if you shop around you can find Proglycem a little cheaper. Not a lot cheaper, but a little. The problem is, that bottle will probably last you a month or so, so you can figure on $100+ per month to keep Bandit on Proglycem. I don't think you should be embarrassed to tell the vet that you can't afford it. There's nothing wrong with being truthful to him. Of course there are other things you should be doing to insure Bandit doesn't seizure. Like regular, high protein meals. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * A 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation * * Shelter web site: http://www.miamiferret.org * Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc 6. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: lynne wooldridge Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:37:22 -0600 Michelle, I do know that there are other things that you can do to control the seizures/insulinoma. Keep in mind that every ferret is different though so that what works for one might not help another. Dustie (9 years old with insulinoma) takes 1 cc of pred daily. I feed him duck soup, but a very simple version of it. A/D, water, and chicken and gravy stage two babyfood. This was working well until recently when he contracted a terrible viral condition called ece. Dustie had surgery a year and a half ago and this helped him tremendously with the insulinoma. Perhaps you could take with your vet about a payment plan for treatment. Unfortunately, care of these little ones is often so very expensive. Try to keep Bandit is a low stress environment, feed him every three or four hours, as well as keeping dry food in his cage. Dustie stopped eating dry food altogether and will only eat the duck soup mixture. Often when a ferret has a seizure, it is because they have not eaten enough. Try counting the dry food pieces to see how much he is consuming. Offer the duck soup mixture from your fingers or a spoon to encourage him to eat. I hope that this helps you. I will keep you in my thoughts and hope for the best for you and Bandit. Lynne and Dustie 7. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: Marcia Anop-Romashko Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:23:15 -0600 Hello dear Michele, I am new to this list, but I bought my first of four babies 6 years ago this Mother's Day. On Sept 9, I had to put my little Daisy down because of her cardiomiopathy ...she was about 5. My angel, Ouwasseh,5 years, developed an adenoma shortly thereafter, had surgery in late Oct and died on Nov 29. I had been suspicious that my oldest, Kolya, who was almost 6,was developing adenoma also....very slight hair loss, lethargy, and a pot belly......my husband, after seeing what Ouwasseh went through, thought we should not do anything. Well, I have had a knot in my stomach for over a month.....and yesterday, Kolya started to stagger and his nose was pale. I rushed him to the vet, who after doing an ultrasound, said there was a huge mass on the right side, which makes surgery difficult......what did I want to do.....she could open him up tomorrow and take a look.......in a way, I was lucky because after I returned home with him he began to fail even more. I called the vet and we talked about "heroic" measures and the quality of his life and the chances of his surviving.....it was a terrible decision, but my husband and I took him in last night and he died with his mom kissing his nose...... I understand your very difficult decision.....can you look at this in terms of whether or not this new medicine will definitely add to his life, how much time, and what will be the quality? My mom passed away about a year ago. She had an aggressive type cancer and was given 3 years max.....she was always a fighter, so we did all the treatments that were appropriate. She continued to get more ill although her lab work still seemed within normal limits. After her last, more intense treatment, we rushed her to the ER. They did blood work, etc and she asked how things looked.....I told her the results were not good. She then asked me to make it be over quickly as possible. With our little ones, they cannot talk to us, and so we are left to assume that they, like us, do not want to suffer anymore. I'm not sure whether anything of what I just said to you is helpful, but please know that it came from the heart of a greiving "mom" who understands your very difficult position and is sorry for your pain. Sincerely, Marcia P.S. The ironic note.....after Daisy died and I took Ouwasseh to the vet.....I ended up adopting 3 ferrets whose owner just didn't want them anymore.and had asked the vet to kill them....ages 6, 5, and 3....2 boys and a girl......all seem to be pretty healthy and I have 4 babies again......I just know Daisy did this! 8. Bandit not doing well ..urgent!! From: Linda Knights Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:08:34 -0800 Michelle, I don't have the medicine you've mentioned but there is something you can do that isn't medical to help - have you tried Bandit on Chicken baby food supplements? We have 3 ferrets with insulinomas and have been able to avoid pred on one and keep the doses VERY low on the other two because we supplement their food with 10 cc of a food/baby food mixture every couple hours (while we're awake). You take Beechnut Chicken baby food (it MUST be in broth, not with gravy as gravy has milk). Beechnut is the only company that makes this anymore, unfortunately. Our mixture is one can of baby food to about a cup of softened, pureed ferret food. Add about 1/2 teaspoon (or so) of Nutrical and one squirt of ferretone (for taste). Puree together until you can pull it up in a syringe. We use syringes to feed but you could certainly feed with a spoon. A regular teaspoon is 5 ccs so you'd give 2 teaspoons of this every 2 hours (if Bandit will take that much). You might have to encourage him to eat it early on... but once they get the taste of it I've never seen a ferret who wouldn't immediately take to it. This is very high in protein and has long-lasting carbos in it so it tends to even out the blood sugar levels and you don't get highs and lows. I know its not much but as I've been in your position, I thought even a little suggestion might help. My best wishes go to you both, I have a Bandit of my own and he's one of the ones on this mixture. Linda K (and 14 little fuzzy friends) 9. Bandit thanks all of you :>) From: "Michele" Date sent: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:22:11 -0500 Thanks for all of your warm loving emails I appreciate each and eveyone.. I have a problem with a kind lady named Sheri and if she is on this list I just want to let you know your emails I replied to came back.. I cannot begin to thank you all for your support and kind words and information about insulinoma..I am still trying to force Bandit to eat the nice warm chicken gravy Kim from Kista Ferret in New Jersey gave me..He will not eat it even when I mixed it with his regular food..he is one stubborn sable ferret...I need some support with how does one force a ferret to eat something good for him? I have tried the following: placing it on my finger to try and lick..Bandit would not even go near that I then placed some in a feeding syringe..he suddered..gagged then spit it all out onto me I then took some of his food (8 in one) ground it up mixed it with some warm water ..he sniffed at it and gagged and didnt eat it..and spit it out.. how do you force food into a ferret if he loves to eat on his own??he is eating like crazy drinking his water and I am upset that the chicken gravy is not being eaten..I really want Bandit to have his blood sugar get regulated..I cannot bear to see him have another seizure again..It tears my heat into a million pieces..I wish I had the money for the new medicine and am going to call my vet and ask him to call me when he has time because I dont want to have the recptionist relay what they vet says as when I called while bandit was having the seizure .. Thanks again for you warm and loving emails and support..Please feel free to email me with some way to make Bandit eat the chicken gravy. Michele and Bandit... p.s. if any of you would like I have a pic of us from last year... ~To touch someone....You must first touch their heart~ ----------------------- End of FAIML #373 -------------------------