From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 3:08 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #374; Jan. 10, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #374; Jan. 19, 2000 1. Scout has a possible tumour 2. Leoprolide Acetate Depot 3. 2nd adrenal gland 4. adrenal-right seth 5. adrenal questions post 6. Lymphosarcoma and adrenal tumors question, & Draco's death 7. what type of food is best? 8. Web Page for Dr. Weiss 9. For Shari: about Lilly 10. Cloth chewing 11. Adrenal question, and a try at some answers 12. FAIML #373: Reply Urgent Post 13. Winnie and hiccups The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Scout has a possible tumour From: "Seaurchin" Date sent: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:49:21 -0600 Hi Everyone, Scout is a male, almost 6 years old. He was quite porky when I got him 4 years ago but lately he has been losing weight rapidly. He dropped from 1.49 kgs to 1.19kgs in the last five months. He has lost muscle mass in his hindquarters and his breathing was shallow and rapid. An x-ray of his chest showed a possible mass near his heart. There was so much fluid you couldn't see his left lung or heart at all. His right lung was almost collapsed. The vet put him on Laysix and I've switched him from the ferret food I was getting from the shelter back to Performatrin. The Lasix seems to be working, his breathing isn't as laboured now. The vet wants to do an ultrasound to see what is causing the weight loss and fluid buildup. The vet suspects cardio myopathy. If anyone has had any experience with this problem I would appreciate the input. Patty, Pascal, Scout, Cisco, and the twins Mongo and Tubbs 2. Leoprolide Acetate Depot From: Linda Knights Date sent: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:58:05 -0800 Hi all, I have a question (maybe two) that I hope someone has the experience to answer. I have had a whole run of really bad lucky with adrenal cancers. Out of 14 ferrets (currently) we have 5 who've had to have surgery. A new one is going in for a check-up today and that will bring the total to 6. We also have one little boy who due to major complications (medical) can't have the surgery but needs it - so 50% of our ferrets have had the problem or do have it. Of the ones who had surgery (and Nickie who can't) 3 of them never regrew any hair. Raven went completely bald except for a very small amount on his head. In desperation we turned to Leoprolide to help them. In July we purchased the Leoprolide ($500) and 3 of them were given injections - Raven, Wolf and Nickie. All of them regrew some hair. Wolf and Nickie regrew about 1/2 of their coats. Raven regrew a complete coat of fur. As Raven was the worst off (he had skin sores from overgrooming bare skin!) we were thrilled. Raven has never had another injection and still has a gorgeous full coat of hair. Wolf and Nickie got injections every 3 weeks and have never regrown anything more than they got off the first injection. The Leoprolide is being stored in a nitrogen freezer (which isn't inexpensive in itself - sigh) but I wonder if it is still potent. Has any one used this in the past and can you give me some idea if the above is pretty normal? My vet orders this for me but she has no real information and so, truthfully, I'm pretty much my own vet on this situation - even give the injections myself. I'd love to talk to others who have used this drug and get some feedback from them. Thanks - Linda K (and 14 fuzzy little friends) 3. 2nd adrenal gland From: WBarn96105@aol.com Date sent: 7 Jan 2000 08:25:29 EST Bud (6 years old now) had his left adrenal gland removed over 3 three years ago and was doing great until now... he has lost alot of weight(weighs about 2.4lbs..lost 5 ounces)and is very tired...he also just had a Mast Cell Tumor removed from his back. our wonderful vet suggested no more surgery since right adrenal gland has more complications.. I agree..she also said she can put him on some meds which all have side effects-lose of weight and stomach problems... I also agree.. any other suggestions.. feed him duck soup an he loves Ensure.. I want him to have quality..Paula 4. adrenal-right seth From: "JOHN&DANA" Date sent: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:05:58 -0600 My ferret started having problems about around (Dec.1st "99). He was urinating green. It took me two days to figure out which one of my ferrets it was. I immediately (Dec.3) took him to a doctor that I looked up on the net. An ex-ray showed his right kidney enlarged. He was put on nutri-cal & a medication of some kind. (The urine test was a little high of protein, if I remember correctly.) He continued the green urine. I took him back (Dec.20th) & another x-ray showed the same thing & the urine test was fine. He was put on Methigel, Feline k/d prescription diet, he had a baytril-antibiotic injection, and a b-sol injection . He still continued once again. I took him back (Dec.31st) -another baytril & b-sol injection. (He was eating, drinking, & full of himself throughout all of this). I once again called the doc and I had to take him in. He did an exploratory surgery Thursday and had to remove his right adrenal gland-tumor. He doesn't know if it is going to affect other parts. He did say that he did not like the look of the liver or the kidney's. Seth had no hair loss at all and I would had not known if I had not saw his urine that there was anything wrong. I haven't had Seth but about two months & he is only a year old. I don't know how to take cars of him since his surgery. I don't know to let him out to play or not. I am going to keep Seth & Amy separated two weeks. The doc said he gives him about 6 months & I am to keep him on the k/d from now on, if anyone has any suggestions on how to care for him or any information for the doc, please write me back. 5. adrenal questions post From: tina wagsatff Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:44:35 -0800 (PST) After months of getting the list I finally have some questions for you guys. I'll start be introducing myself. My name is Tina and I have three ferrets. Two are MF that aren't quite one, Spaz and Nipper. My ferret Maggie is about four y/o, I don't know which breeder she came from because I don't know the markings. I got her about nine months ago as a rescue. At that time she had been fed cheap cat food and left in a cage in the garage for most of her life, she didn't get any attention to my knowledge. When I got her she weighed 1 pound 3 ounce but since then she's made it to 1 pound 9 ounce. She has always had a thin, wirery rough coat but at the time I thought it was malnutrition but it never filled out or improved at all. She is almost bald between her shoulder blades and her tail. She has recently began with slight swelling of her vulva but nothing significant. I have spoken with my vet and he feels that even if it was adrenal she doesn't show enough of the signs to warrent treatment. She has learned to play and eats fine so there is no effect on her welbeing. What I want to know if if you think it is adrenal and when do I begin to worry, is there a general time when the symptoms get to this point then you do something. Thank you for all that I have learned for reading this list, it is wonderful to know there are people who you can turn to with questions or when you need support. 6. Lymphosarcoma and adrenal tumors question, & Draco's death From: Outlaw50@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:40:24 EST My first ferret, Ryker, will be 4 years old next month. He had adrenal pattern hair loss during the summer and spring but felt good and, as they sometimes do, got his full coat back for winter. A few weeks ago, I noticed the lymph glands on his neck appeared to be slightly enlarged. Since then, they have grown very rapidly. I took him to the vet and every lymph gland she can feel is also enlarged. X-rays showed areas around his lungs and spleen that my vet feels are being affected. His blood work indicates his liver may also be involved. He goes in for a biopsy of one the glands on the 11th. In the book "Ferrets, Rabbits and Rodents", it mentions that ferrets with adrenal tumors are not good candidates for chemo as complications may arise. It also mentions some homeopathic remedies. He has not lost any weight and although he tires out quickly, still dooks and war dances about. The one thing I've noticed is that if I move him after he falls asleep, he whimpers. I've done a lot of reading and it seems he's right between the ages normally seen for the two different types of lymphoma. I know one spreads rapidly and the other more slowly, so it's hard to try to "guess" what this one will do, if it is lympho. I would be grateful for any information or experiences any of you (or our wonderful FAIML vets) could share with me regarding lymphosarcoma, especially in combination with adrenal tumors, as well as treatment. His glucose was 82. I would also like to let you know that I lost my best friend, Draco, on December 3, 1999 after battling various illness for two years. Draco became severely depressed after being rejected by his long time cage mate, Lillie. Last year at Christmas, he was in a lot of pain. It was believed he had cancer and was full of tumors and we considered putting him to sleep, but did exploratory first. He only had numerous fat pads and a grossly enlarged spleen which was pushing his intestines totally out of place, which the vet removed. He did very well after surgery (with the help of Bob C's chicken gravy) until he began wasting away this summer. His stools were just liquid. We tried medication, but when the stool firmed up, he would not eat. He still seemed to enjoy life (although he slept a lot) until the last day. As soon as I got up and checked him, I could tell he did not have long. At various times, he would get up to walk, take a few steps and stop...then just flatten out. With a very heavy heart, I knew it was time for me to help him to the bridge. Necropsy showed two large tumors in his intestines...one almost completely blocked the ileum (sp) and the other perforated the intestinal wall, probably that morning. He was probably fortunate in that some fat tissue immediately moved in and blocked the perforation, which may have saved him some pain. He also had masses in both kidneys. It's taken me this long to be able to write about his death...it's still hard to believe. The house is so empty without him, despite my 12 other fur kids. He was the most unique ferret I've ever met... Judy 7. what type of food is best? From: "sue delaney" Date sent: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 00:45:40 -0500 i have an insulinomic ferret. the only 'ferret' food i've ever been able to get her to eat is marshalls, however i noticed that there is molasses in it and i don't think that would be good for her. she get's bob c's chicken gravy, but i would like to keep something else in her cage in case she runs out of chicken gravy when no one is home and is hungry. my other ferrets eat totally ferret. nicky is also on prednisone, i don't know if that makes any difference in the food i should feed her. 8. Web Page for Dr. Weiss From: MiskaBC@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:53:14 EST Finally - a website for Dr. Weiss - a great start, anyway. It's at http://www.ferretdoctor.com Dr. Weiss will expand the site and add links to other sites in the future. (BTW, Mike Janke's site has more of Dr. Weiss' information on it than perhaps Dr. Weiss' at this point, for which Dr. Weiss is most grateful. Mike's site is http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc.) 9. For Shari: about Lilly From: dookdook@icss.net (Margaret Szelmeczka) Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:47:37 -0600 I tried to reply to your e-mail about Missy and Lilly today but it was returned. Here is a copy of what I wrote. Shari, Put Lilly on the same thing as Missy. Check a couple of things on Lilly. 1. Is she sleeping a lot more - right through when she should be eating. This would be a very good indication of insulinoma. 2. Is Lilly eating and drinking a lot but no weight gain and a lot of pee? If so, I am sorry to say, it would sound like kidney failure. If she indicates insulinoma, give her 1/4 tablet of brewers yeast (has chromium) to keep the sugar balanced. If she is in kidney and liver failure, it saddens me to say there is no cure or way to delay it. Please post to the FML, or FAIML, for a better vet in your area. concerned Margie 10. Cloth chewing From: EquineAmy@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:24:50 EST If it comforts you any, I have two that chew cloth. My oldest Winnie (who has been written about here a lot lately), only chews one thing - you know those little hanging sacks that they sell for ferrets - well there are two little black nylon pieces that tehchain goes thru to hang it in the cage and she gnaws on that - but she doesn't eat it. Chloe, my middle girl chews and eats. She will be three next week and as of yet I have had no problems. She doesn't eat cloth too often, but once in a while she eats it. She does however suck on it a lot. I asked my vet about it a while ago - (not my ferret vet though). Yes it has a chance of causing a problem, but I give her petromalt often and as of yet no problems. He thinks they do it because they were removed from their mothers too early and it is a weaning thing. I can't say exactly what it is all about but something to do with that, according to the vet. I believe it is a kind of comfort to some animals. I am not too concerned about chloe eating the fabrics, I just keep her well "lubricated". I think as long as you keep a close eye on the animals you should be okay - Good luck -Amy, Winnie, Chloe, Connor and Tigger (who is just visiting till him mom comes home from vacation) 11. Adrenal question, and a try at some answers From: ANITABEERS@aol.com Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:53:57 EST Hi! Well, I haven't posted for a while, but I've definitely been keeping up with things, and trying to help where I can. Hope everyone's doing well! :-) For Joy: I don't know why Daisy would eat cloth, but I've heard of other ferts doing this. I think it can cause a blockage, so try to prevent her from doing it. Maybe give her a safe chew toy or something - good luck! For Emily: I'm sorry to hear about Bear's bad vaccine reaction, and I can sympathize with your frustration. I do all that I can to support the shelters and educate people about ferts, and I think and hope I'm making a difference. I admire your support of the fuzzies! For Michele: I'm sorry, but I don't have much experience with insulinoma, so I can't help you much there. However, I do want to let you know that I definitely understand your financial dilemma, as I'm sure most of us do! I don't think your vet or anyone else would think you're cheap and heartless, because you have financial limits. We all do, some more than others, and I think you might feel better if you just honestly explain your situation to your vet, who I'm sure has heard this before. It's a horrible feeling not knowing if the money you might spend will even help, and your vet might have other suggestions. Just remember that even if you didn't have a cent to spend on your ferts medical bills (which can pile up too quickly!), they're still better off to have had such a wonderful loving home! :-) O.K. now for my question! Our 4.5 yr. old male fert Tasslehoff had his left adrenal removed, and right debulked about 1.5 yrs. ago. Now his right is showing signs of acting up again, i.e. hairloss. He's had two opinions, and it looks like surgery is the best option. None of the vets in this area have done a complete right adrenalectomy which seems to be what he needs, although the vet who would do the surgery sounds very confident. Does anyone have any idea of the risks involved with tying off the vena cava, and removing the right adrenal completely? I'm so nervous about it, espcially since tasslehoff is doing great clinically. Although I don't want to wait until he has a blockage or other complication, I'm very worried about him not coming out of this difficult surgery. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Anita 12. FAIML #373: Reply Urgent Post From: Linda Knights Date sent: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:50:28 -0800 Michelle, None of my guys will eat the chicken with gravy but they love the chicken in broth (Beechnut brand is all there is left anymore, the other companies stopped giving it). Also, you can try adding a little Nutracal or Ferretone (very little Ferretone!) to taste tempt them. Linda K 13. Winnie and hiccups From: "Butts, Jennifer" Date sent: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:00:31 -0500 Hi, I guess I missed the original post about the hiccups, so sorry if this is not relevant. My girl gets them sometimes and I found a great trick that gets rid of them everytime. I hold her with one hand just below her front feet against my chest, so she is just hanging there, then I rub her tummy up and down for several seconds (probably less than 30 seconds...because she gets to squirmy to hold after a while). Sounds strange, but it has never failed to work. And if you were worried about the hiccups I don't think you should be, I don't think it is a sign of a serious problem, at least I have never heard of it being so. Jenna Winnie and hiccups RE AMY (WINNIE) MY OLDEST FUZZY 2 YRS OLD DOES GET THE HICCUPS OFTEN. NOT SEEN IN THE YOUNGER ONES....I WONDER IF IT IS NORMAL? I HAVE USED THE POWDERES YEAST AND MIX WITH FOOD, BUT I FORGOT HOW MUCH. KISSES FROM HEAVEN, KAREN ----------------------- End of FAIML #374 -------------------------