From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:47 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #381; Jan. 30, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #381; Jan. 30, 2000 1. Adrenal surgery and illness 2. Patch is sick 3. Molly and insulinoma 4. Adrenal tumors 5. Update on Solo 6. Re: FAIML #380; Jan. 29, 2000 casodex 7. Losing Cage buddies 8. Victoria diagnosed with Insulinoma 9. Subject: Giving prednisone 10. Jack-update 11. Suggestions and replies The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Adrenal surgery and illness From: Kim Cierpik Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:13:43 -0700 (MST) Hi, My little 2.5 year old girl Khobi is scheduled for adrenal surgery in a week, but she is showing signs of an illness. She has a couple spots on her neck and back that look like blood-blister. She has recently stopped eating and is sleeping a lot. I am going to take her to the vet first thing on Monday, but I would like to know if any of your adrenal babies have had these spots, or stools that are grainy. Thanks in advance, and I hope your ferret kids are doing well. Kim 2. Patch is sick Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:53:30 -0800 From: dagger4u@home.com Well, Patch is sick again. He actually hasn't been himself for quite some time, but we have yet to figure out the problem. He vomits about 2 times a day. Clear fluid. (when it dries, it looks grainy, like salt) He is tired, doesn't run around alot. Seems to be still eating, (no weight loss) and his stools seem ok. Doing alot of "lip smacking, gum chewing" behavior. When I try to get some medicine down him to stop the nausea, he just throws up. All the recent blood work is normal, including a fasting glucose. I am at a loss...I hate to see him sick. What should I do?? Kim and the furry six 3. Molly and insulinoma From: "Donald Dittman" Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:16:58 -0800 I have a ferret, Molly Ann, who was diagnosed with insulinoma in August. Some of you may remember that she was a stray with malnutrition and a heart murmur who had to have emergency adrenal surgery. I was very sad about her progress and wondered if I should put her to sleep because her life became eating a spoonful of Gerber's chicken baby food at a time with a lot of coaxing and then sleeping. She was on pediapred and also had diarrhea. On Christmas day she came out of her sleep sack and started ripping into the presents. From then on we decided that she needed more love and one-on-one contact whether she wanted us to hold her or not. Within a couple of weeks she has progressed to actually cuddling with my husband night after night and playing a bit during the day. Today she wanted rides in a plastic bag and boxed with one of the other ferrets. She is walking around more and is eating a full jar of the baby food each day. If you are having a lot of problems with your insulinomic ferret try extra love and cuddling even if they want left alone. It can't hurt. Laurel 4. Adrenal tumors From: Gayle Ritzert Date sent: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:50:42 -0500 Hi, I am new to the list and have found the advice helpful. My five year old neutered male ferret was diagnosed last week with an adrenal tumor. He is half through a 14 day of antibiotics for prostate inflammation and being incontinent of urine. He has lost a little hair and has been trying to mate with his spayed female cage mate. They have been together since they were kits. Do you think that it is worthwhile for him to have surgery at his age? I was taking with another ferret owner who says that local breeders don't recommend surgery for 5 year olds because it only gives them a few more months. I don't mind spending the money, or having a bald, incontinent ferret and don't want him to suffer. However I do not want to put him through surgery and the post-op recovery for only a few month. I am going to call some other ferret-friendly vets for second and third opinions. Thanks in advance for your help. Gayle 5. Update on Solo From: Julie Fossa Date sent: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:18:41 -0800 (PST) Sorry to be slow to update on Solo; it has been an unusual, and emotionally devastating week. Solo left us yesterday at around 4:00 pm. His temperature had finally dropped on Thursday, (had been 103 to 105) and he had started to hold his head up by himself to eat. He would pull himself out of his blankets and over to his paper towels to relieve himself about half of the time, towards the end. He was having a really difficult time getting his tail up far enough to keep it clean, so we had to help him with his hygiene and keep him wiped off since he was unable to lift his body. He barely used his back legs at all, towards the end. He had one more day to go on his two-week course of Biaxin/Amoxy for possible helicobacter. He was getting Carafate. Solo was getting around 200 mls of Lactated Ringers every day, and being fed a soup of kibble, A/D, Ensure Plus, and Ferretvite. He willing took his food during most of his illness. We had started him on Pediapred for about 4 days, but he quit eating, and his condition did not improve, so the Pred was discontinued. Solo had begun to vocalize more the last day or so. It was a soft little sound, almost like a kitten purring. He did not appear to be in any pain, except when he would grind his teeth, which was usually only during feeding or meds. He loved to be held. On Friday, I had given him his mini-bath (back half only) to clean up his little bottom, because it is difficult to get all the solid material out of his fur if he would 'go' while I was not close by. I had dried his fur with a dryer on a low setting, and had shaved some of his fur in the area to help with the problem. He was rather activated, and very alert. He even had his eyes open and was holding his head up by himself just to look around. He seemed to be enjoying the brushing and drying. I placed him into a hammock that is made like a sleep-sack that is fleece lined, and he 'checked it all out'. He was so 'stimulated'. I laid him in his bed to clean up the area I had given him his bath, and warmed up his food. When I went back to get him, I could see his eyes were wide open, and he had a bottle brushed tail. I picked him up, and he was gone. A necropsy is being done to try to determine what took this healthy 18 month old in just under a month. I want to thank everyone that posted to me here and privately; you are a wonderful group. I will still be contacting each of you that sent emails directly to me. I'll post the necropsy results, when I get them back. If anyone would like more details of the symptoms or course of treatment, you can email me.... Julie ===== Julie Fossa West Central Ohio Ferret Shelter 419/ 225-8383 "Just A Place To Hang Your Hammock While You're Looking for A Home!" 6. Re: FAIML #380; Jan. 29, 2000 casodex From: AFERRETVET@cs.com Date sent: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:52:23 EST CASODEX INFO, I was surprised to read that your ferret is being put on mitotane (Lysodren). Lysodren destroys the cortisol producing cells in the adrenal gland, but in ferrets cortisol is not being overproduced. Remember it is the sex hormones (i.e., estrogens, progesterones, and testosterone) and the androgens (i.e.. DHEA, and Andro.) that are being overproduced by the ferret adrenal glands. Lupron depot (leuprolide acetate) would be a better choice. Casodex (bicalutamide) is a non-steroidal antiandrogen. It inhibits androgens by binding to androgen receptors. As a single agent, rises in serum testosterone and estradiol have been noted in humans. It was mainly used WITH a GnRH analogue (i.e. Lupron or Zoladex) in the treatment of prostate cancer in people. Proscar (5mg finasteride) [ 1 mg tabs are called Propecia] is the current drug of choice in human prostate cancer. Your ferret is a female, so you do not have to worry about prostate enlargement. If she was a male then Propecia would be a better choice to reduce the prostate size. I would also use Lupron to decrease the stimulation to the adrenal glands . Jerry Murray, DVM P.S. if you do use Lysodren- be sure to check blood glucose level before starting and after she has been on Lysodren for 7-10 days. The lower cortisol levels may also lower glucose levels. If she also has an insulinoma then Lysodren will lower glucose levels, and she will need Pred to raise glucose levels. 7. Losing Cage buddies From: "Lisa Little" Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:00:35 -0500 Cathy I am so sorry to hear about Nibble my heart goes out to you. I had 3 ferrets when one of mine died in an Accident he and Nyx had been what I consider a bonded pair. She looked for him for weeks even Amber the other ferret I had didn't help her lonelyness at first. Best thing is to give them alot of attention and love and yes treats too. It seems to help when you have multiple ferrets.In my experience the half of the bond doesn't ever seem to reattach to another ferret but your love will mean alot. I have 9 ferrets now with 3 sets of them being bonded pairs although they all stay in a large room together and all stay in the same big cage when I'm not home these sets of ferrets are always found together. Hug those Weasel Bears! Lisa ~Owned by Amber, Finn, Aiden, Gabrielle, Puddin, Kodiak, Freki, Freya, and Jade 8. Victoria diagnosed with Insulinoma From: Sara Easterly Date sent: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:24:42 -0700 Hi Lynn, Thanks so much for posting the e-mail about Victoria. I was worried I'd screwed up the posting process somehow, but completely understand how busy you must be with all the e-mails you receive! Vicki's actually recovering beautifully -- I'm thrilled about it. She's still not the greatest walker, and I think part of the problem is that I, too, have hardwood floors. I'll follow your idea and try some carpet runners, as that sounds like it'll really help. I'm glad to hear Wally is doing so well after his risky surgery. That's wonderful news, and I hope his energy levels come up more and more. I'm curious -- with an adrenal tumor the size of a ping pong ball, were you able to feel it inside his tummy before he wen in for surgery? My other ferret, four-year-old Foley, just last week developed a ping-pong ball-sized lump in her tummy. I haven't taken her to the vet yet, but after talking with him on the phone, he thought it sounded like an enlarged spleen (apparently common for ferrets?). She's been itching like crazy for a few weeks now, which I originally thought was an allergy. I've tried washing her with an oatmeal shampoo, but the itching won't seem to stop, and she's now itching so hard she has tiny sores on her back and some of her hair is falling out. So, I'm now starting to worry that she, too, has adrenal disease. I'm taking her in for an exam Thursday for a definitive answer, but if you have any thoughts based on your experiences, I'd love to hear them! Again, thanks for the FAIML, and thanks for posting Victoria's e-mail. Sara Lynn McIntosh wrote: 9. Subject: Giving prednisone From: JLGloer@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:25:36 EST In a message dated 1/28/00 4:09:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, faiml@uswest.net writes: << Can I give them straight ferretvite to get the prednisone down them? >> I have found ferretone does the trick. I usually scruff baby for the pediapred and then she knows the ferretone is right there for her to rinse it down. Since she knows the ferretone is there, she doesn't fight the pediapred. My vet told me to only use the ferretvite if she is having an attack of low blood sugar and only enough to get her going enough to eat some regular food. Besides that, we are avoiding anything sugary for Baby. 10. Jack-update From: Amy Claire Dempsey Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:00:36 -0400 Jack is getting better by the day. Of course, he has already popped a stitch and won't take his antibiotics. He will eat small portions of "duck soup" off a spoon, but all I have to do is put one tiny drop of Amoxi in the food and he gags. I mix it with Nutrical, he gags, I mix it with Ferretone he gags. Now he even starts gaging when he sees the syringe with the Amoxi Drops. I can't afford to have him hurting himself by gagging, but I need to get him his antibiotics, especially since he drug his guts all over the inside of his carrier! So I am off the the vet in the morning to see if he can get injectable antibiotics instead. I want to thank everyone for their kind words, prayers and thoughts.... I know its helped. Amy and her 5 fur snakes and 13 fur angels. Jack - "Get that gross pinks stuff away from me... Yuk!... Yuk!...I can't even stand the site of it!!!!" 11. Suggestions and replies From: Ferrets1st@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:40:48 EST Operating a shelter can be a mountainous undertaking, especially if you are in an area that sees hundreds of ferrets annually who are given up by their owners for various reasons. Unfortunately, I am only able to help a portion of these needy ferrets, but even that "portion" involves tremendous comittment, which I gladly give. However, shelter chores, picking up unwanted ferrets, making adoptions, vet trips, and making a living leave very little time for mailing lists. This is why many of you won't have a clue who I am, hopefully though, some will. Lists are extremely time-consuming. I'd much prefer to help a large number of ferrets rather than one or two here and there. I have wanted to offer many different topics on my website (www.ferretsfirst.com) and suggestions for those dealing with sick fuzzies but again, time is limited so I am still working on that. Something you might all like to know is that in the latest issue of "Ferrets" magazine (March/April) is an article on managing ferrets who have both Adrenal tumors and Insulinoma. It is written by my vet, Dr. Roger Kendrick. Please, get the magazine and read this very enlightening article. It discusses both diseasese separately first, then deals with the combination. So, even if your ferret only has one of these problems, you can learn from the article. Roger has performed countless adrenal, insulinoma, and other surgeries for me. He is dedicated to his on-going education on ferrets and other animals, and is dilligent about keeping up with any new findings in ferrets medicine. >> From: "Amy C. Dempsey" We got him home, and he was extremely lethargic - but of course he had had two major surgeries in one day. Wednesday he was really out of it and barely wanted to eat. Thursday morning he wouldn't eat and his stomach was bulging..... Jack was in the carrier, it was soaked with blood and his guts were hanging out... Of course on Thursday while I am rushing to take Jack to the vet I miss feeding Little Bear on her schedule and she has a seizure.... P.S. Heidi in PR, my vet here in St. Croix is getting very knowledgable about ferrets if you need some help. >> Having run a ferret shelter for a number of years, worked closely with two excellent vets, observed dozens and dozens of surgeries performed on shelter ferrets and personal ferrets over the years, I would like to offer my thoughts on your situation. Most importantly...Jack needs to be on antibiotics to prevent infection from all the trauma to his "insides" and exposure to contaminants. If your vet did not put him on these, you should ask for them, if your vet doesn't feel they are needed....change vets. Antibiotics will do no harm and may prevent serious complications in Jack's case. Secondly, having observed countless surgeries and then taken the little fuzzies home for recuperation I assure you, what happened to Jack should never happen if you truly have a skilled surgeon. I am appalled that this happened. It is inexcusable. I have never had internal or external stitches fail. Occasionally, a ferret will pull out an external stitch, but that is a minor problem, and it is very rare. There are ways sutures should be tied to prevent problems like these. Something is very, very wrong here. Suggest you make some phone calls, be willing to drive or whatever it takes to find a vet who has successfully performed far more ferret surgeries than this vet. I am not bashing your vet, just saying s/he needs more experience and I'd hate for your ferrets to be the ones who suffer while surgical procedures are mastered. On Little Bear...if she is that unstable that she can't miss a single feeding I'd be seriously concerned. Having dealt with dozens of ferrets with Insulinoma also, I can assure you that seizures should be a very rare occurrece, and with advancement of the disease or other gravely extenuating circumstances. At the present time, I am managing 5 insulinoma ferrets here, and 2 long-distance at a branch shelter. Rascal, who is here, was operated on recently to remove insulinomas. Upon seeing how extensive the tumors were, we opted for simply closing and managehim as best we could with Pediapred and on-going care. I saw Rascal's pancreas, I saw the tumors. The vet estimated 40 or more tumors spread over the entire pancreas, they averaged about half the size of a pinhead each...roughly. Rascal has been the most diffucult to manage of all the ferrets here now with Insulinoma or in the past, yet he is very stable now. He gets .8ml of Pediapred twice daily and his bowl stays full of Totally Ferret and I check to be sure he's eating often. (If ferrets will accept dry food, Totally Ferret is my first choice for insulinoma patients. I have seen them remain far more stable on this food than any other. If your ferret only takes soup, try to wean them over to a soup that is purely Totally Ferret and water...as a rule, they'll be more manageable.) Some ferrets do "crash", dosage of medicines have to be adjusted, and it can take a while for them to stabilize. Rascal did that before his surgery a few times, that's why we moved up is surgery, but now he's fairly regulated and requires no soup or hand-feeding of any kind. Some ferrets are harder to manage than others, and are less stable, but still you should be able to skip one soup feeding without a major crisis. I guess my concern is in the way you tell the story of this incident, it sounds like it was "no big deal" or perhaps "fairly routine" for you/Little Bear. If that's the case, something is wrong. If this incident *is* in fact way out of the ordinary, then perhaps she's more stable than she sounds. Regardless, I'd consult with a knowledgeable vet regarding adjustment of her medication. As for your last statement...if you are speaking of the vet who did Jack's surgery...you must be joking..right? Readers, please, always remember, the guy who partied instead of studying, slept instead of reading assignments, screwed up his lab experiments, and may have had trouble tying his shoes...but who managed to squeak by on tests...and ultimately finish in last place in his graduating class....is still called "Doctor of Veterinary Medicine" (DVM). Please don't assume they walk on water just because they are vets. I have countless stories of vets who have killed ferrets through their lack of knowledge or incompetency. Many, many vets are excellent...find those! If something doesn't look right or sound right...question it, if the answer isn't plausible..leave, find another vet with more knowledge and experience. Your fuzzies lives depend on it. Finding the right vet is the *single most important thing* you will ever do for your ferret. >> From: Sara Easterly Victoria's home with me now so I can nurse her back to health. I'm feeding her 10 cc. of A/D every couple of hours, as well as lots of Duck Soup. We've also upped the dosage of Prednisone she was already taking. She loves eating the food, but is still very lethargic and groggy. The worst is that she can barely walk now.. >> Victoria's behavior is normal in a severe case as she has. It will take some time to get her stabilized. Keep her in a small areas (cage or carrier if possible) with lots of soft bedding covering the floor. Remove the litter box and put papertowels in the corner the box should go in. That way she won't hurt herself or have to work so hard getting in and out of the box. A/D is okay, but see if you can mix in some soft Totally Ferret (soak in water). That will build her strength faster. If you will email me personally with your duck soup recipe, I'll be happy to offer other tips if I have any. Some soup recipes out there are good, some are not so good. With insulinoma ferrets you have to be especially careful. Regarding surgery for Victoria, based upon her history it sounds like your vet made a good choice. It's hard to accept that surgery is not an option...but I have also seen many ferrets live long and reasonably full lives if their owners are dedicated enough. >> From: "Michele" He told me its from his insulinoma and that he is still having seizures because his blood sugar still is not regulated..I asked about his diet and if he needed some extra help like duck soup and he told me not to unless he wont eat because my Bandit weighed in at almost 3 pounds and he does not want him to gain anymore weight.. >> Weight should have nothing to do with this. Bandit needs food, frequently! If he'll only eat soup, then feed soup...just use a "good soup". The most important thing is to get him stable, not worry about his weight. If you can get him on a soup of simply Totally Ferret and water, it's the same as if he's just eating his food...there are no "fattening" or sugary additives to this soup like with so many other duck soups. If he isn't eating dry food well enough, email me, I may have some suggestions of "tricks" or other foods to get him to eat. >> From: Onecrested@aol.com i have a ten year old female marshall farms female named J.C.... has only lost a tiny bit of hair on her tail and is acting normal otherwise. she stil eats well and i have had no problems from her. The veterinarians want to do surgery at the Vet school were i attend but i thnk she is too old and dont want to rick it. we are starting a mitotane drug regimen soon with J.C. i have read in some of the posts about Casodex. What is this drug and what is it used to treat? >> You are absolutely right in not wanting to do surgery on J. C. there is no reason for this. A little hair loss is not a big deal...major surgery on a ten year old *is*. My vet and I have never performed a surgery on a ferret over 7 years, and rarely do we do one that old. As for the Mitotane, I have used that on many adrenal patients, in my estimation 9 out of 10 ferrets on it experience improvement. Mitotane (aka: Lysodren) works to actually shrink the adrenal tumor, often preventing it from becoming cancerous. I highly recommend it. As for Casodex, it is mentioned in the magazine article I discussed at the beginning of my post. Personally, I would use caution with any drugs that are known to "alleviate symptoms" of the disease, rather than actually attack the source of the problem. The jury is still out on some of these drugs, Lupron is one also, but some believe these only target the brain thus causing "better behavior", some drugs may cause "hair regrowth" and these may convince the owner the ferret is improving...in reality, the tumor may be spreading and becoming more deadly every day. Surgery is the best option if possible for the ferret, secondly, for inoperable adrenal tumors, I'd use Lysodren/Mitotane. I have used it for years with ferrets, some have been on it for 3 years and have done very well. To all readers: Another tidbit you may find helpful with Insulinoma...I have found Pediapred to be far more effective on ferrets, than other forms of prednisone. If you are not using Pediapred, please ask your vet to prescribe it instead. (It is a childrens' form of the same drug, but processed in such a way that it absorbs quicker and causes less ill effects than predisone or prednisolone can.) Personally, I believe it keeps fuzzies far more stable than the other forms. Local pharmacies recently ran out of Pediapred and we had to use prednisone instead...it was a nightmare. We had several ferrets develop problems until we could find Pediapred again...then they stabilized again and have had no problems since that are related to the medicine. Vets will tell you it's the same drug, and it is, but the liquid Pediapred is simply more effective with ferrets..who knows why. Kisses to the fuzzies. Trish Director, Ferrets First Rescue & Shelter (www.ferretsfirst.com) MODERATOR'S NOTES: I'm glad Jack is doing well and I hope Amy isn't too upset by this post. I know nothing about the validity or non-validity of the Trish's statements regarding stitches, though I hope some vets will step forward with opinions. Please, though, people, try and be diplomatic and concise in your replies. My time is very limited in getting the list out and I can't moderate flame wars. Thank you. Lynn ----------------------- End of FAIML #381 -------------------------