From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:08 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #387; Feb. 11, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #387; Feb. 11, 2000 1. Gabby died 2. Thank you 3. Re: FAIML #385; Feb. 6, 2000 4. DRENAMIN 5. What else can I do (hairloss) 6. Bandit died tonite :( 7. Fatbert The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Gabby died From: "Lisa Little" Date sent: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:25:33 -0500 Well I had intended to keep a day by day account of Gabby's health post Lupron shot. I'm crying so hard right now I can't see the keys. THis morning she wasn't doing great but I cleaned her up, expressed her bladder and fed her. got her to drink water and gave her her antibiotics.When I got home from work she was dead and had been for some time. I am so sad and angry and confused. She was supposed to get better, if she was so sick why didn't they just tell me to put her down instead of giving her the shot. Death was never mentioned, no side affects were. Only that she should be getting better soon. I just want one year to go by that I don't lose one of my babies to insulnoma or cancer or "unknown causes" I'm calling the vet tomorrow and having a necropsy done to find out what went wrong. I'll post again. Gabby makes nine over the bridge in 10 years. I ahve to keep telling myself the joy they bring me is worth the expense and the pain Tiar 2. Thank you From: "Kim Cierpik" Date sent: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:52:16 -0700 (MST) Hello, I wanted to thank everyone who wrote to me after Khobi passed away. This is truly a wonderful group. It's nice to know that there are people who understand our love for our kids. On a good note, I went to a local ferret shelter to donate money in Khobi's honor, and fell in love with a sweet little girl named Mia. Although she can not replace our little Khobi, she is helping us all heal. Best wishes to all. Thank you for the support. Kim, Zoey and little Miss Mia 3. Re: FAIML #385; Feb. 6, 2000 From: "Gail Shochet" Date sent: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:32:47 -0500 > Blue shoulders >From: "Heidi Lepak" >Last night we noticed that while looking down at her, her front >shoulders have a >blue color. Almost a cyonotic blue. The color does not go across the >shoulders >as there is normal skin color there. When you turn her over (amidst >her wigglies) the upper arm pit area also has this blue color. Though >again, it does not continue across her chest. Heidi, it sounds as if your baby's fur is growing back in! That's exactly what happened when Elie's fur started coming in after he was on Lupron for about six months or so. He turned blue! We were terrified and immediately called Dr. Weiss, who told us not to worry, it was the hair growing back. Elie left us last week, but he lived to be almost ten, pretty good for an adrenal/insulinoma sufferer. He had two adrenal surgeries and went through all of the medications Dr. Weiss has tried over the last four years or so. I believe that the Lupron treatments in conjunction with Pediapred extended his life and his quality of life was fairly good until the very end, when he just went to sleep. I had told him it was okay to go, he was a trooper and put up a long hard fight. -Gail 4. DRENAMIN From: "Grant, Lillian" Date sent: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:27:58 -0800 KELLY, My Claudia crossed over in June 1999, and a couple of months before, Randy of Ferret Aid Society, told me about a nice lady in Arizona who carries Drenamin. So as of June 1999 the following information was correct. What is your little angel's name? Will be thinking lots of good thoughts & prayers for you & this little angel. Love them all you can, life is not written in stone. Make happy memories every possible moment! Stephanie & My Little Band Of Closet Thieves: Spanky, Moose, SnowFlake, George & Gracie And the Zoo: TAZ, Dara Nin, Snickers, Monkey Inside/Out Cat & 1 Line Dragon + Sam, Claudia, & Scarlett O'Ferret @ Rainbow Bridge 5. What else can I do (hairloss) From: "Eden Rain" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:28:21 -0800 Kelly wrote about her Phoebe losing hair again after having had both adrenals removed & worrying that the adrenal disease was back. Kelly, obviously this is one for a vet, but hairloss can be caused by more than just adrenal tumors. As you posited, it could be seasonal, or it could be another illness. Not to scare you, but our lemke was losing hair making us think he had a 2nd adrenal & it turned out to be related to his heart condition. Have your vet take a look & if in dobt go the ultrasound, there's nothing better for telling you what's really going on with thier little organs. Good luck & hopefully Phoebe is just changing her wardrobe & all you'll have to deal with is vacuuming her fur up off a few pillows. Eden & Lemke the Wunderferret _____________________________________________ Eden Rain raghead@liripipe.com 6. Bandit died tonite :( From: "Thad Haynes" Date sent: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:43:38 -0600 I am soo sorry for you !!! My Juno is an adrenal and insulinoma baby !He was diagnosed for insulinoma in 1995 and put on 1/4 of a 5mg prednisone every 24hrs.then was diagnosed in 1997 with adrenal .He started to lose more hair and tremmor some in 1999 our vet reduced the prednisone to 1/4 of 5mg everyother day,the tremoring has stopped and his hair has grown back too,but still thinnig now he is on 1/4 og 5mg every 3 days.His weight is good right now and he eats really well,We started adding nupro and mirra coat to all our furkids food about 3 months ago,(it is in powder form)and has made a big difference in all their coats!I firmly belive that is part of his doing really well now! He has never seizured just tremored some but that was before we started the powder supplements.He is around 6yrs old now and I know he is not hurting but I also know his time left is to be cherished everyday.Our food mix is 8 in 1 ultimate,Totally ferret,Zupreem,Marshalls,Iams kitten food also I mix in ferretvite treats and 8 and 1 treats to the mixture When Juno was first diagnosed with insulinoma he had lost alot of wieght from around 2lb.s to well under a lb.we also had to give him sugar water for a time also.It almost seems like he is in remission right now.He now plays some with the other furkids which has made me smile with tears.I rescued a pair of little girls about 11/2 yr.s ago one of which was showing the pattern of balding of adrenal symptoms and a swollen vulva also a knot like bump in her neck .Our vet thinks it might be thyroid problem.Since using the suppliments her hair has grown back and the knot has reduced alot from the size of a lima bean to the size of a grain of corn.and her vulva is normal now she has not been on any meds.and is playing alot now too.she is around 5yrs old now.Her name is Hershey due to the fact that she is a chocolate color and very sweet . My vet is Dr. Carol Best a really wonderfull ferret vet! Hope this helps some who have this going on ! Again I'm so sorry for Michele!Rest in Peace Bandit have fun at the bridge! (((HUGS)) to you! Trisha and the 12 ps I am assistant director at the Ferrets Unlimted Rescue of Tulsa Susan Malone is the director. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn McIntosh To: FAIMLanon ; FAIML Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 10:50 AM Subject: (Fwd) Re: Bandit died tonite :( 7. Fatbert From: Ferrets1st@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:03:26 EST Sometimes you can determine a vet's knowledge on ferret simply by the way s/he says things, describes things, and the terminology s/he uses. An enlarged right adreanal gland means it has a tumor...did the vet tell you that? The entire gland should be removed to be certain of getting "all" the tumor. If the vet did not mention "tumor" in regard to the adrenal, I'd be suspicious (I don't think I'd let this vet cut on my ferret anyway). The magazine called "Ferrets" contains an abundance of information ferret owners will find useful. In the January/February 2000 issue (available now at petstores) is an article by Dr. Roger Kendrick (my vet, who sees a number of ferrets every single day, performs ultrasound tests, a multitude of surgeries on ferrets, including laser surgeries). The article addresses Adrenal Disease (tumors on the adrenal gland), Insulinoma (tumors on the pancreas), and treating ferrets who have a combination of the two. I think you would find this article very helpful in managing Fatbert and in understanding the diseases he may have. The adrenal gland problem is not his biggest problem, and likely, should "wait" until he is stabilized. If he were my ferret, I would not begin any treatment for his adrenal tumor at this time. "A mass inside his pancreas" could mean several things...it could be an insulinoma (common), it could be another type of tumor or cyst (not so common). Did you vet say insulinoma? That would be my first thought. Was a glucose test done? You can have those results in a manner of minutes as they are done right in the office. Karo syrup and other sugars and how much your ferret has recently eaten affect glucose test results, however, to get an accurate picture all you have to do is tell the vet how much of what and when the ferret ate or was given, then a period of time (usually 2-3 hours) can be allowed to pass without offering the ferret anything to eat (no syrup either), then the test can be run to get accurate results. He could have scheduled you again for a test later in the day, after the ferret had been "fasted". Instead he sent you home saying there was nothing you could do, but wait days for test results that won't tell you anything that isn't already obvious..I'd be afraid...very afraid. In severe cases, the ferret can be dead before an insulin test comes back, so fasting glucose is the best way to go in most cases, especially since insulinoma is so common in ferrets. Another way to learn of a vet's experience with ferrets is simply to observe the blood draw. If it's clumsy and awkward and there are numerous attempts to find the vein, I'd be concerned..however, do remember ferret's jugular veins are somewhat difficult to find because of their thick skin, but a practiced vet should not have a great deal of difficulty finding it. The treatment for ulcers is usually an antibiotic, like Amoxicillin. If he thought the ferret had an ulcer, why didn't he prescribe this? Ferrets with ulcers often respond within a few days to amoxicillin and begin eating again without assistance. As for bringing ferrets out of seizures/episodes, I have brought many seizing ferrets out theirs in under 30 minutes by knowing what to do and having the stuff on hand to do it with. It's really, really sad when I can do this, but your vet had no clue how to help Bandit. I am not a vet, nor have I had any formal training, I've learned by standing shoulder to shoulder with the vets while procedures are performed, and asking tons of questions and reading everything I can get my hands on relating to ferrets. I have learned by dealing with hundreds of ferrets through my shelter over the years. Every ferret owner has a responsibility to *learn* all they can in whatever ways possible. Good vets are willing to share their knowledge with those of us who are truly devoted to our pets and who are able to ask intelligent question and truly learn from what s/he says....I promise you this. Do not be intimidated. Intimidating vets are often not very good at treating ferrets, and often are trying to hide their lack of knowledge with big words to scare us and make themselves sound important (hmm, I wonder why the words "infectious hepatitis" leap to my mind here...). Those who have the knowledge and who truly care about ferrets, are happy to help you be a better ferret owner and are *not* threatened by concerned, intelligent questions. The best thing you could do right now for all your ferrets is contact one or more ferret shelters closest to you. Make sure the shelter operator is knowledgeable (you can tell if you ask questions and pay attention to the answers, making sure they coincide with the article I mention and this message) then find out if they keep dextrose on hand. If they do, perhaps you can place your ferret under the care of their vet (who supplied them the dex) and get authorization from him/her for the shelter director to inject dextrose and lactate ringers as needed when your ferret seizes. If they don't have dex, then ask for the name of their vet, and change to him/her for management. If you can't find a shelter, find a club and ask for vet referrals, if you can't find either, keep looking or drive further. If Fatbert has insulinoma, you need to be prepared by taking these steps now. It is up to you to find a competent and knowledgeable vet, your kids lives are in your hands. As far as "infectious hepatitis"...I have never heard of this in a ferret. I have never checked into it so I can't say it's not possible, but I think, in light of the other things you have told me, I'd get a second, and perhaps a third opinion before I jumped to any conclusions about that. If Fatbert were my ferret, I would evaluate the severity of signs related to the pancreas. If Fatbert were having seizures, that would be the first condition to address. Pediapred may manage it, or surgery may be a better option, and if signs are severe that might need to happen quickly (choose your surgeon carefully!). If there are little or not outward signs of pancreatic problems, I'd address the ulcer first (if he truly has one) because eating is most important for insulinoma ferrets. Amoxicilin would be my first course of treatment. Amoxicillin won't hurt regardless of the accuracy of diagnosis, but it must be continued for a month to effectively eliminate ulcers. Go to my website (www.ferretsfirst.com) and read the article on "Dealing with a Sick Ferret" for more suggestions on feeding Fatbert. I mentioned this in an earlier FAIML. Ulcers have been addressed several times in past issues of Ferrets magazine...by vets. If you email ferretwise@top.monad.net she may have some back issues still you could buy. Good Luck, Trish Director, Ferrets First Rescue & Shelter ----------------------- End of FAIML #387 -------------------------