From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:33 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #413; April 18, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #413; April 18, 2000 1. Capuccino's sickness Post 2. Update on Odo 3. Bandit, etc. 4. More on Winnie 5. Thanks 6. Babyfood 7. Reply: more on Winnie 8. Reply 1.  Help (Winnie) 9. Reply: More on Winnie 10. Reply: More on Winnie 11. Bandit The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Capuccino's sickness Post From: "Julianna Carlson" Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:35:34 -0400 Hello,\ I have posted notes to ask for help on one of my ferrets, Cappuccino. When he started to lose his fur we braught him to the vet and he though it could be an adrinal gland tumor. we put him on raw turkey and after a long time started to go back his fur. so we switched him back to regular ferret food. But the thng is that he still had noo fur on his bell, on his tail except for the tip of it and on the sholders. Can anyone help, give comments , or suggest anything? Thanks. Julie, Noone, & cappuccino 2. Update on Odo From: "Dale Nupp" Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:21:45 -0400 Hello All: I sent a post shortly before Lynn made her last trip to Alaska, talking about my Odo and seeking advice before I saw my vet. I hope I thanked everyone for their advice. If I forgot someone, thanks!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's the update. On two different occasions, Odo had a bg level of 40 - 44. We started him on pred. There appeared very little change in his signs. He did perk up a bit but I think that was more from my forcing him to eat Science Diet A/D and Bob's chicken gravy/duck soup mix. When the second bg was low my vet also did an insulin test which he said was very high so off to surgery we went. My vet opened Odo up yesterday and found nothing wrong with him. Pancreas, adrenals, kidneys, liver all appeared normal. He did remove a slightly discolored lump on his pancreas. Althogh the biopsy will not come back for a couple of days, my vet felt it was not a tumor. Since he really couldn't fnd anything he did not do a partial pancerectomy. Odo did well after the surgery and is to come home tommorrow. Now the vet wants to try prolglycem. He said he has been having pretty good luck with it and has been treating one ferret for the past three years with a documented age of 8.5 years. The vet said Odo should like it since it tastes like mint. Is this true? He said it costs around $90.00 for a year's supply. Does this seem reasonable? Odo absolutly hates the prednisone. I hope it works so I can give you updates for the next five years. Odo is only four years old and I'd like him to stick around for a while. Dale 3. Bandit, etc. From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:43:44 +0000 Christina, You wrote: >SNIP> > However, there is now another problem the blood glucose that was taken was 52 > (to LOW) I was really surprised only because a month ago his reading was (91) > and about (6-9) months prior it was in normal range. So Dr. Adamkack gave me > #30cc PediaPred to be given 0.55cc twice a day for one month. I need to know > if I give him this drug will his body become dependent on it to manage blood > glucose levels??? Pred will not cause a dependence per se, but he does need something to maintain an adequate blood glucose level. You can try multiple small high protein meals before starting the medication. Did he suggest surgery at all? Partial pancreatectemy is recommended in good candidates BEFORE starting any meds. The vet said I could wait another two weeks > to do another reading before administering the drug if I preferred. What do > you think? And do you know where I can get info. on this drug specifically? Try any nursing formulary available at Barnes and Noble. Excellent resource. Also I > know based on what I've read online that PediaPred is usually given with > Proglycem but she did not mention that and I didn't realize it at the time. Proglycem is only given once the animal becomes tolerant/resistant to the pred, in order to continue a normal blood glucose range. It should never be used from the outset. She > also suggested Science Diet W/D which actually is a low fat diet for cats but > very high in fiber. She said the high fiber will help keep the sugar in the > blood because it helps slow metabolism down (something like that anyway). > Also I noticed this W/D it has Creatine in it which is supposed to help > metabolize fat in the body for energy. What do you think I hate to give him > such a low fat diet because I know FAT is very important for ferrets. I don't agree with this. I think a high protein diet is essential for maintaining blood sugar, and that w/d is not sufficient in nutrients for a ferret. > > Oh one other thing I should mention Bandit's hema Cretin (?) was high she said > that it might suggest he's a little dehydrated. I myself don't think he's > drinking enough water so I was thinking of softening his kibble with water and > adding pedialyte to his regular water? ' Hematocrit or PCV (Packed Cell Volume) - ferrets are usually high, but getting him to drink more water can't hurt. However, don't use pedialyte - it is full of sugar. Hope this helps Vicki, You wrote: > > Ok, just recently lost a ferret to insulinoma and cardiomypathy. Been told 2 > years ago by ferret knowledgeable vet to feed him turkey and rice or chicken > and rice babyfood after surgery, he wasn't eating on his own and had loose > stools. The rice will help firm the stools up. Ok. Did that. Anytime he > came down with loose stools I would add a small amount of rice baby cereal in > his goop to help him firm up. Iams cat food has rice. Rice is suppose to be > safe for them to eat? And then studies come out showing that rice might be > responsible for causing insulinoma, by making their pancreas overwork breaking > down the starches in the food, making their glucose levels fluctuate? Okay - what study was this? I must have missed it. Never base any change in diet on one study, there is always the possibility of bias. I use rice myself, in very small amounts, for the same reason. And now, > after being told by 3 different ferret knowledgeable vets that brewers yeast > helps elevate the glucose levels, and when his readings were low told to > increase the brewers yeast, that it actually may have been harming him and not > helping him? Chromium has been proven to help maintain stable blood sugar levels in people. Every diabetic I know is on it, and I do recommend it to supplement insulinoma ferrets. What this boils down to, is lots of money spent on vets, medication, > special diets, etc. to help my ferret and it turns out that all these "ferret > knowledgeable" vets were wrong and I was actually contributing to my ferrets > demise? Actually, ferret vets can only tell you what they themselves have learned. Partial pancreatectomies are relatively new - many vets don't even know we have that option in insulinoma. We used to use DES in cats for skin disease - now we know it can lead to diabetes. All any very human vet can do is their best with the knowledge currently available - and that is what yours did. I am confused and angry, this is all making sense and not making > sense. I don't want to feel responsible for my ferrets diseases, even though > I do, and there is no one specifically to blame if there is not enough > properly educated ferret vets out there. This makes me fear for the health of > my remaining 4. But, what am I to do? > Educate yourself, find references or ask your vets to find out about issues that you have concerns about. I regularly have clients with various pets bring me articles or as for literature searches on different problems. I appreciate the chance to learn. Erin, You wrote: > it's only been seven months since Reggie, my five year old male ferret, had > adrenal surgery. now the doc has diagnosed him with insulinoma. the doc > wasn't surprised by this either.. if the adrenal / insulinoma is so common, > and it's a result of improper breeding and other unscrupulous activites at > ferret farms (mainly), why does it continue? We don't know the cause, Erin, there are many factors that could be involved, including diet, light exposure, etc. Research is going on, but it takes time to sort these complex diseases out. I know this is frustrating, and I've lost fuzzies to these diseases, too. If you want to avoid the problem, support small responsible breeders and further research. Once we find out the cause, we have the power of knowledge to do more. -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 4. More on Winnie From: EquineAmy@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:08:42 EDT MODERATOR'S NOTE: This message was sent indiviually to everyone, and I'm including it in this, the next, list as usual. Well, I just got back from the local vet. Winnie's BG is only a mere 73. She doesn't look well at all - so bad that the vet was actually worried about giving her her distemper shot. I have already called the specialist - however he is out and won't be back till tomorrow to tell me what to do next. Her 73 today was from a 2 hr fast (I didn't think more wouldb e good for her), and she had her pediapred about 45 min before the BG test was done. She has also lost almost a half a pound in the last 6 weeks. I really don't know what to do. I know they are going to tell me surgery. I don't know how to say no to that if it will help her - she is my baby. I am sitting here crying not knowing what to do. I just can't pay for it - but this is her life we are talking about and she is just 3.5 yrs old. Why would she suddently get so bad - it really seems to me like she is worse on the medicine - is this possible. The vet told me the pediapred would make her more active and eat better - she does neither. Why? Please help me - -Amy 5. Thanks From: EquineAmy@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:24:18 EDT I really want to thank everyone for all the beautiful emails that you all sent. The vet will call me tomorrow (Tuesday) morning. I am going to see what he has to say and I will let you know ASAP. I just got home from class and am going to the grocery store to get some ingredients to make winnie some delicious food. Again, I am sorry I am not respoinding to you all personally, but I must get some food in winnie first,. Thank you all so much for caring. I am also going to search tonight for another vet in the area - if anyone knows of any reasonably priced vets that I can put my trust in, please let me know. I am in the NY area - I already travel to Ct. for this vet, who I think is wonderful, I just can't afford his surgery. Thanks so much, Amy, Winnie, Chloe and Conor (who both don't like seeing their big sister sick) 6. Babyfood From: EquineAmy@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:08:30 EDT I have tried making duck soup for one of my ferrets before and they didn't really like it so I was wondering if just plain babyfood is okay. I got some gerber chicken and lamb food last night. Winnie actually seems to like the lamb - this can't hurt her right. She did eat about 15 pieces of TF while I sat with her this morning and then a teaspoon of the lamb. And she was a little more active too - wrestling with her sister :-) Still waiting for the vet to call, I know he does surgery from 12-3 so I will try calling again then - but I am getting a little antsy waiting for him. But when I do hear I will let you all know. Thanks again for everything. Amy 7. Reply: more on Winnie From: "Ferret Fanatic" Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:28:00 -0400 Amy, am so sorry to hear that Winnie isn't doing well. Did she just recently get put on the pediapred? If so, it may take a little while before she becomes more active again. If she has been on it awhile, it might be time to increase her doseage or add proglycem. Be sure you feed her food high in protein, adding a all meat babyfood like chicken or turkey may help also. Hope to hear that Winnie is doing better soon. -- Vicki L. Henderson-aka-Ferret Fanatic Woody, Miss Tizzy, Ginger Snap & General Kaos! Sadly missing "Buzz"-who will always be in our hearts The Fearless FLO! http://www.geocities.com/vlh1 Ferret Xmas Ornaments: http://members.home.net/ferretfanatic ICQ: 11898312 8. Reply 1.  Help (Winnie) From: "fetS" Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:27:21 +0200 >From: EquineAmy@aol.com >Anyway, she is now on the pediapred. Here is my problem. Winnie NEVER showed any signs >of insulomnia before the medicine (just the BG readings) and= now that she is on >the pediapred, she has had 2 days in the last three weeks where she is just out >of it. Eating helps (she eats well, but I remind her often to eat snacks). Now is >it just a coinisidence that she is getting sicker now or could the pediapred >somehow be doing this? We had a comparable experience. Since we lost too much time before our insulinomic ferret got diagnosed correctly the disease had progressed too far. He had some minor insulinomic periods but after starting him on pred. the frequency of the episodes rose enormously. I suppose pred. only helps if started at an early stage of the disease. We lost the ferret about 3 weeks after the start of the pred. treatment. As for the BG count: we won't be fooled in the same way again.few weeks ago we bought our own electronic BG measuring device and in close coperation with our vet (who is very interested!) we started our own supervision on BG. fetS, fets.ferretpower@yucom.be www.ferretpower.yucom.be www.onelist.com/group/frettengetetter 17/04/00 at 11:09:54 9. Reply: More on Winnie From: DebPadSum@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:35:25 EDT Amy, I just read the last message you sent, I have not seen the others since I have not signed on for a long time. Anyway, I was in a similar situation with my Teddy. He had lost about 1/2" and he was weak, his back legs would not support him. He also had episodes of low blood surger so bad that he acted comotose. To make a very long story short, my experience is that it is better to do the surgery then not. Actually, the sooner the better. I spent around $600 taking Teddy in for the emergencies. These vets would not even talk to me about surgery, they liked it just fine that Teddy was a constant patient. The worst part was that it was not necessary for Teddy to suffer through that. I spent about $350 on the surgery. I was able to make a payment arrangement with the vet that did the surgery. She agreed to let me split the payment over 3 months. It was insulima, a cancer on his pancreaas about the size of a BB (melanoma). She has now become our family vet for all 9 ferrets and 3 dogs. Before and after his surgery I try to get his weight up. Have you tried the duck soup? Force feed if necessary 3, 4 times a day. Make it taste good with Ferretone. Have you tried giving Winnie her Pediapred mixed with some Nutrical or Ferretone. All my ferrets will take their medicine that way no problem. I mix it together and they lick it off the baby spoon. Another thing you can do right away is give Winnie Pedialite. Mine like Grape the best. That always perked Teddy up and the electrolites are very helpful when they are sick. It keeps the ferrets from becoming dehydrated. If Winnie will not drink it from a bowl, then get a syringe (w/o the needle) and feed it to her that way. She will resist, but if you scruff her and have someone drip the pedialite into the side of her mouth slowly and carefully, you will be amazed at how improved she will be. Teddy had his 2nd surgery this past month. Again, I was able to arrange payments. Then Tyler had a growth on his shoulder that needed surgery, again I was able to arrange payments. You need to find a vet who truly loves ferrets and is ferret wise medically (or at least willing to learn from the latest research medical journals. Sorry to go on so long, I just feel for you and Winnie. Winnie is young, my Teddy is about 5 or 6 (adopted from a very horrible situation). I based my decision on whether to do the surgery or not on what was best for Teddy. Was he still enjoying life? Was he comfortable? Was he in pain? Would he survive the surgery ( there is no guarantees with any surgery, but usually the vet can tell whether or not the ferret has enough strength/ health to say yes or no) ? I couldn't afford these surguries either, but I could not stand the thought of losing my little Teddy boy. So in a way I did it for me too. This is my story, I am not trying to tell you what to do. Your decision has to be a balance of what is good for Winnie and what is good for you. God bless you and help you and Winnie through this difficult time. Loving all fuzzbutts, Deb and TBiz + 3 10. Reply: More on Winnie From: "Judy Kuusisto" Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:26:15 -0700 Hi Amy, Since I am not an expert in anything related to ferret health, I just want you to know that you and Winnie are in my thoughts and prayers. We've lost two of our three ferrets so far to these awful problems, but they were elderly and nothing could be done for them by the time they got sick. I usually just read and try to pass information on to my vet who's trying to learn more about ferrets. They are among the most adorable and wonderful creatures ever! I treasure each day I have with Merritt! I wish you and Winnie all the best, write to me privately if you just want to vent. Judy 11. Bandit From: Cjbandit@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:48:47 EDT Hi everyone, It's Christina and Bandit (AGAIN) Just wondering if anyone out there has brought their ferrets to Dr. Weiss for adrenal surgery and did the cryosurgery? Its a bit of a trip for me about (5 hours) and I wondered if anyone else has made a trip to see him. If so i would love to hear from you Thanx much, Christina ----------------------- End of FAIML #413 -------------------------