From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 2:00 AM
To: FAIMLanon; FAIML
Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org
Subject: FAIML #414; April 20, 2000

Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #414; April 20, 2000      



The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a       
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most important  services you can provide to your ferret.                           

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1.  Adrenal Question
2.  Re: FAIML #413;  April 18, 2000
3.  Looking for a Good Ferret Vet in Seattle
4.  Pediapred mimicing adrenal disease?  Cataracts?
5.  Chromium 
6.  More on Feline w/d
7.  Lupron experience
8.  Proglycem
9.  The winnie saga continues
10. Winnie's vet visit

1.  Adrenal Question
From:   "Mary Rogers" <mary.rogers@telops.gte.com>
Date sent:  Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:32:33 -0500

Last September we did an ultrasound on Bootsie and found a very small 
(assuming insulinoma) on the pancreas.  Adrenals looked OK.  Now all of a 
sudden her fur is thinning all over.  The tail is thinning but not at the 
base on her rump where you'd expect.  Her fur never really grew back from 
when they shaved her tummy, just a little peach fuzz.  My question is can 
this be adrenal (7 mos later) when nothing showed up on the ultrasound?  
She's 5 going on 6 and still pretty active.  I'm still debating on surgery
because we also have the AD virus.  Any advise or sharing your experiences 
would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mary and The 12 Munchkins


2.  Re: FAIML #413;  April 18, 2000
From:  "sharon wagner" <scwagner@webtv.net>
Date sent:   Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:23:51 -0400 (EDT)

I have a very knowledgeble vet doctor and I love her.  However, I don't have 
thousands of dollars.  I knew last evening I should have put my Cutie to rest but 
I am not ready until he is in pain  I just spent $500 in September to have tail 
amputated because of a tumor, lymph node removed, 2 tumors removed from 
pancreas and they did not want to operate on the other tumor because too close 
to vena cava area so $500 and now I find out he has an enlarged lymph node 
and a mass growing around his kidneys.  I chose not to put him to sleep and 
antibiotics hoping it will get rid of any infection he may have.  I can't see doing 
more surgury for $500 and still have one they can't operate on.  He has been on 
Prednisone 1/2 twice a day since September and now I hear this.  I decided 
until he is in pain or sickly I am taking one day at a time, however, I know a vet 
would not tell you to put them to sleep but she did tell me when I am ready it 
would be a wise choice.  I am on an emotional merry go round, because I had 
him 6 1/2 years and I know he will only get worse not better, but I'll wait it out 
and see if the antibiotics help him.  When I had $500 worth of surgery the ferret 
vet did tell me I was buying time so I guess I should be thankful he is still with 
me but believe me it is a very, very tough decision.  


3.  Looking for a Good Ferret Vet in Seattle
From:  "Sara Easterly" <seasterly@uswest.net>
Date sent:  Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:42:07 -0600

I'm planning on moving to Seattle within the next month and would like
to begin searching for a great ferret vet in the Seattle area. If
anybody has any suggestions, please let me know! My six-year-old
Victoria has both adrenal disease and insulinoma and is rather
high-maintenance.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sara


4.  Pediapred mimicing adrenal disease?  Cataracts?
From:  "Lynn McIntosh" faiml@uswest.net
Date sent:  Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:43:08 -0400

Hi.  First to Amy:  I'm glad Winnie is feeling better!

Our Wally hasn't regained all his hair after having his humongous (ping-pong-
ball-sized) right tumor removed in January.  His left was very small, our vet said 
shrunken due to the right being so large.  He's doing much better, after also 
having a bit of his pancreas removed.  In fact he's lost a whole pound, partially 
due to the reduction in his pediapred dose following surgery!  And he can walk 
with his tummy off the ground now :))  He got over his recent what we think was 
bacterial infection after a round of amoxi this month, too.  And yesterday he 
drank water out of the regular ferret water bowl, for the first time in two years 
(at least that we've seen)!  Here's my question.  Most of his fur grew back, but 
not his tail fur, and now his behind is bald.  Much more "classic" looking I 
expect.  Our vet said to watch and see if it gets worse, that it may be due to the 
.5 ml pediapred 2x/day, which, by raising his cortisol, or, I think she said 
cortisone, levels could be causing the hair loss, since this is one of the hormones 
elevated in adrenal disease, and the one elevated in Cushing's disease in dogs, 
also causing hair loss.  Has anyone seen this with their fur kids?  Vets?  We are 
supposed to watch and see if the hair loss progresses, in which case we can 
suspect adrenal and might proceed to an ultrasound or surgery.

Interesting info on chromium.  I'd long ago been told to give insulinomic ferrets 
brewer's yeast, and I'd feel guilty when I forgot to put it in our chicken soup 
stew for Wally.  I had been adding a chromium supplement, but will stop.

Also, our Wally, almost seven, developed cataracts, noticibly this year.  He eats 
my husband's chicken soup.  I'm wondering if something besides old age might 
have caused them, such as a lack of some nutrient (taurine?; I've added it to the 
food, but didn't in the beginning), or perhaps all the pediapred and Proglycem, 
i.e. drugs, he's received the past three years have contributed to them?

Thanks!  And Wally says thanks, too, to those who sent healing thoughts and 
prayers while he was sick this month :)

Lynn


5.  Chromium 
From:   "Karen Purcell, DVM" <drkaren@world.std.com>
Date sent:  Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:04:55 +0000

Folks, 

  I recently did some research on the chromium issue, and I want to 
retract any recommendations I've made for adding chromium to the diet 
of ferrets with insulinoma.  I feel Dr. Murray is correct, and this 
is not an aid to maintaining blood sugar.  Everyday is a learning 
experience with ferrets!

-Dr. Karen
drkaren@world.std.com


6.  More on Feline w/d
From:   AFERRETVET@cs.com
Date sent:   Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:43:25 EDT

To Christina

You asked some questions about feeding feline W/D food for your insulinoma 
ferret. I would not recommend feeding W/D. W/D is a low calorie, low fat, high 
fiber cat food. It is made for prevention of obesity and for diabetes in cats. You 
said that   your vet said the high fiber will help keep the glucose in the 
bloodstream. That is not what the high fiber does. High fiber LOWERS the 
amount of glucose that is absorb after a meal. Thus it keeps the blood glucose 
from rising. That is great for a diabetic, but it may not be good for an insulinoma 
pet. The low fat is a good thing for a diabetic cat for 2 reasons. The first reason 
is most diabetic cats are overweight or obese and this adds to their insulin 
resistance. Thus a low fat (low calorie) diet helps them lose weight which helps 
lower their blood glucose levels. L-carnitine (not creatine) is added to "burn fat" 
and help them lose weight also. The second reason is diabetics have a 
derangement in fat metabolism. This derangement predisposes diabetic people 
to coronary artery disease, which is the major cause of death in diabetic people. 
In cats high-fat diets will make a diabetic cat more prone to pancreatitis. 
However insulinoma ferrets do not have these problems. Ferrets in general need 
a fat level of 18-20+% in the diet. Feline W/D dry only as 9.5% fat (on a dry 
matter basis) and the can W/D has only 16.6% fat. Ferrets in general require a 
low fiber level <4-5%. W/D dry has 8.9% fiber and can W/D has 12.3% fiber. 
Thus w/d has 2-3 times the fiber level need for ferrets. Insulinoma ferrets tend to 
be on the thin side, so you want a high calorie food with high protein levels, and 
high fat levels. Ideally you would want a low carbohydrate level also. 

The fiber level is good question. Adding a little fiber to the diet may help lower 
post feeding glucose peaks which may help lower the stimulation to the 
insulinoma; however, it will lower the amount of glucose absorb from the food 
which may lower the already low blood glucose levels. I would suggest feeding 
a good ferret food (Marshalls or Totally Ferret) or a good kitten food (Iams or 
Eukanuba). If you want to supplement the food you can add cooked meats, 
cooked eggs, strained baby foods (Gerber's chicken) or Hills A/D. Remember 
W/D is designed for diabetic cats were the goals are to lose weight and to lower 
the blood glucose levels. Insulinoma ferrets are the exact opposite! The goals 
are to gain weight and to raise the blood glucose levels. People (and vets) seem 
to get confused with the phrase "helps stabilize glucose levels." This usually 
refers to stabilizing glucose levels in DIABETIC people and pets, which means 
to LOWER their high glucose levels. That is why high fiber diets, chromium, and 
vanadyl are recommended for diabetics (to help lower their high glucose levels). 
Again in insulinoma ferrets the goal is to RAISE the glucose levels, so avoid 
chromium and W/D food.  

Jerry Murray,DVM  


7.  Lupron experience
From:   Ferretx7@aol.com
Date sent:  Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:25:20 EDT

Hi! With all the things about Lupron lately, I just wanted to tell about my 
experience with it. Maggie: Age 6, This time last year began losing hair in the 
classic Adrenal pattern. Sleeping alot too. I had the U.of T. Blood test done, 
which confirmed it. She had her surgery in June. There was no improvement. 
None. Never even grew her hair back, from where they shaved her. In 
December her vulva swelled. And she is from a breeder. Spayed at 6 months. 
Sara: age 4 Same thing, classic balding at the tail base. And thinning of hair on 
her toes. And acting like a boy instead of a girl! Also from a breeder! Again 
blood test positive. My new Vet suggests Lupron for both. No surgery for Sara. 
This Vet did not do Maggies surgery. She comes from the U. of T. where shes 
done studies on Lupron. She feel that the Adrenal tissue not only exists in the 
glands, but also in surrounding cells. Why do ferrets with both Adrenals 
removed, have reaccuring problems? Because there is tissue elsewhere. Surgery 
does not always get it all. She said a dog would be dead, if both glands were 
removed!! She says once you cut into a ferret, it just disrupts everything. Well 
now its April, Maggie grew a little hair back, and her vulva finally went down, 
post 3 Lupron shots. She act so much better, happier, more playfull. But not still 
quite herself. We may look into an ultrasound. Possibly the right is cancerous 
(the left was not) I will not cut into her again. I dont know yet. Sara looks 
beautiful, gained weight, beautiful coat comming in everywhere! Shes stopped 
marking things (peeing on stuff like a male) and being aggressive.  Shes on full 
tilt! So this has been my experience. I'm going by what my Vet says (may be 
good may be bad, only  time will tell) She goes against evreything Dr. Weiss has 
said..surgery first. Lupron only for non-surgical candidates. She did a talk for 
the Vets in my area, telling them about using Lupron first. My 2 were 
"examples"! They were very good too!       

Well guess that it..Joan Vick and the 8 Toledo Terrors Ferrets since 1977


8.  Proglycem
From:   "Lori M. Sulik" <sulik@home.com>
Date sent:   Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:54:05 -0400

Dale,

>partial pancerectomy.  Odo did well after the surgery and is to come
> home tommorrow.  Now the vet wants to try prolglycem.  He said he
> has been having pretty good luck with it and has been treating
> one ferret for the past three years with a documented age of 8.5
> years.  The vet said Odo should like it since it 
>tastes like mint. Is this true?  He said it costs around $90.00 for
> a year's supply.  

  I haven't tasted the Proglycem (yes, I'm one of those weird people
that typically tastes meds the kids get).

  It *smells* nasty though, and appears to have quite a lot of alcohol
in it.

  Rado absolutely *hates* the taste of it.  The good news is, you give
them so little (0.07cc for our Rado) that it's easy to scruff them,
and shoot it into their mouth quickly.

>Does this seem reasonable?  Odo absolutly hates the prednisone.  I hope it
>works so I can give you updates for the next five years.  Odo is
> only four years old and I'd like him to stick around for a while.  

  You're probably already trying this, but worth a shot anyway.
We make a thick gruel (ground up food, with a touch of water).  Pack
some in a syringe.  crush up the pred.  put in the syringe.  Pack more
food on top.

  Works well for us, cuz Rado *loves* gruel.  She puts up with the
couple bites that taste nasty, for the good stuff :)

Lori


9.  The winnie saga continues
From:   EquineAmy@aol.com
Date sent:   Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:14:22 EDT

I really can't thank all of you enough - I never thought I would really just need to 
talk to someone who understands, but now that I do, YOU ALL ARE 
WONDERFUL!!!!! So here is the latest.  It took almost 48 hours to get an 
answer from my vet - this is unacceptable to me.  And worse of all I called HIM 
again, and only got to speak to a technician who had a note from him  about 
what to tell me, which didn't even apply at this poin- he went home.  I was 
beyond angry!!  I don't know if any of you have herad of Oradell Animal 
Hospital, but they were sooo  nice to me this afternoon.  Ic alled them and 
explained them my situation.  They do have an exotic specialist who was at one 
of their smaller offices filling in for someone.  Anyway, they gave me the 
number, I called him and he wants to see her immediatly - he was very 
concerned about her lethargy. he also told me to keep her on the medicine - it is 
a must for her at this point.  Unfortunatly tommorow is Passover and I can't get 
there early enough and still be home in time, so they are sooopo nice that they 
gave me a 2:30 appt with another vet, who deals with ferrets but not specialize 
in and they will do what they feel necessary and if they have any doubts, the 
specialist, Dr. Boren, will be in the office, just with other patients, and they will 
consult with him. I am sure they will do something to help her and Dr. Boren 
knows I am coming too.  I do hope I get to meet him to thank him for his 
immediate assistance tonight.  I will try to let you all know asap what he has to 
say - but I feel much better now knowing I am going to another vet.  Not to say 
I dont' have 100% confidence in the first specialist, but it has really bothered me 
that it is 48 h ours since I left my first message stating that it was very important 
that I speak iwth him about winnie and still I have just spoken to a technician 
who couldn't really tell me much.  Anyway, that is where we are now so 
hopefully tommorw I will see some improvement in my little baby girl who I love 
more than life itself - she is jsut so special to me and I am going to do all I can 
for her - and hopefully find a much more reasonable priced surgery because 
unfortunatly I don't think I can do anything besides that to help her now. I really 
can't thank all of you enough - I don't know any of you, yet in my time of need - 
your help, suggestions, encouraging words and prayers are just too much that I 
can never thank you all enough. Hope to have some good news for all of you 
soon.  

Amy and Winnie 

PS- sorry I have so much to say, but when I am angry
or upset, I can sure write up a storm!


10.  Winnie's vet visit
From:    EquineAmy@aol.com
Date sent:   Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:44:45 EDT

I am feeling a bit guilty and my mom says I shouldn't, but I found another 
specialist today.  Here is this story.  I got an appointment at oradell animal 
hospital where they are wonderful in general.  The speicalist, Dr. Baren was 
booked solid, but I asked just to see any ferret knowledgable vet casue I just 
didn't know what else to do.  I was in the room and thru the door comes Dr. 
Baren - he told me he rearranged some stuff just to see winnie to make sure she 
was doing okay.  here is what he said - at that moment, she looked wonderful. 
It is okay that she is staring somewhat - compared it to the way someone feels 
when they havn'et eaten a while -shaky on their feet sort of.  I told him she does 
it often, but does always want to come out - just doesn't run around like she did 
a year ago - he said that is okay and normal.  The fact that she wants to come 
out and play a bit is all good - if she only wanted to sleep, I was in a bit of 
trouble.  Another thing he said is that sometimes pred makes dogs stare at 
nothing - it is the drug doing it - never had it reported in ferrets, but sayed I can 
very carfully experiment with her and see what happens if I half her dose for a 
few days - with very very close supervision.  And any problem at all, call the 
hospital. He was very interested to know if it did the same to ferrets that it did 
to dogs and asked if I did try it, if I could keep a log for him.  I am not going to 
do it just yet, but It hink I will in a few days.  Also said that if she stays the 
same, we can add the other med to her diet (I forgot the name - but heard it 
used before here).  But that her pred dosage can still be increased - we havn't 
ran out of that route yet.  And he told me not to feel guilty about my money 
situation.  He said it will buy her some time - but it is not a cure.  He 
understands my situation and was not pushing one  way or the other.  He spent 
a long time explaing to me what exactly was going on and that winnie was not in 
pain - this is just the way she is because of the cancer.  So, he did reassure me 
that all of this was the normal progression and I can see on my own what 
happens if we decrease her dose a lesser amount.  Now here is my guilty part.  
The other vet's office called me about 5 pm tonight telling me that the 73 BG 
was pretty good but if she was so sickly looking he wants to see her.  I did not 
tell teh tech at that point I saw a different vet.  I know the first vet is excellant 
adn very very knowledgable.  This second vet seems equally knowledgable and 
much more pateint with my questions.  The only thing I hesitate over is that the 
first vet was recommended to me where I found this second vet on my own and 
don't knwo much else about him.  Do I need to go back to this first vet who I 
know is good or do you think i should try this new guy for a while.  Winnie does 
look much better today - she even gave me kisses - which she hasn't done it 
two days.  Maybe it had somethign to do with the rain? She gets real mad if I 
wake her before noon on rainey days...what a princess, huh? Anyway, I think I 
will call the first vet and just tell him that she seems much better and Iw ill call if I 
have a problem.  The vet today says as long as I thik she is doing okay, I don't 
need to come back unless a problem arises.  I think this will leave me open to 
be able to make a decision later on about which vet is the best for Winnie.  As 
you all know, I am very open to suggestions - I am sorry if I am confusing 
anyone with my jumble of info - but overall, I think she is doing okay.  By the 
way, I saw her eat two big meals on her own in addition to some lamb 
babyfood and about 15 TF pieces with me at 9 this morning -maybe something 
is going my way for a day.ng.  And her BM's are good too -  

Thanks again,
Amy


----------------------- End of FAIML #414 -------------------------