From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 3:26 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #415; April 23, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #415; April 23, 2000 1. Jonesy now has a growth on his foot URGENT 2. Keegan 3. 7-year-old Ferret 4. Protocol to bring ferrets out of isulinomic seizures? 5. Thank you! 6. Adrenal ultrasound,pediapred,proglycem,etc. 7. Brewers Yeast 8. Winnie 9. Winnie 10. Proglycem taste 11. April 20 post (Lupron verses surgery) 12. Proglycem, Dr. Weiss, Lupron vs surgery, etc. The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. Jonesy now has a growth on his foot URGENT From: "Sue Stout" Date sent: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:49:53 -0500 My Jonesy was diagnosed with insulinoma in November. We have been on Prednisolone 0.5 cc twice a day. His blood sugars have never gotten any higher than 70. I also supplement feed Hills AD diet twice a day..(vet says I don't have to, but it is "our" time together. You see, I have 6 wonderful ferrets. My newest and most puzzling problem right now is that Jonesy started developing a "growth" on his foot about a week ago. It is on his "little toe" right on top. It feels to be about the consistency of his toe nails, very black in color, and possibly painful as he pulls away whenever I touch it. This "growth" is growing at a very fast rate, one day it wasn't there, the next it was. I tried soaking it thinking that he just had something stuck on his foot. Didn't work. Today, while getting their pedicures and manicures for the week, the growth has really grown, almost doubled in size! He still walks fine, acts normal and is still just as loving as always. Has anyone ever encountered anything like this? I am going to call the vet on Monday, but it will be the end of the week before I can get him in due to my work schedule. I am really puzzled. I also wonder if this is cancer...since insulinoma is caused by tumors on the pancreas. Anyone with any ideas, please let me know. Thank you very much, Sue and the gang of 6 2. Keegan Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:37:23 EDT From: JHerge9760@aol.com Hello all. Sorry I haven't kept you up to date but I have been listening. I just took Keegan in for a check on her bg for her Insulinoma. It has been six weeks since her surgery in which they removed half of her pancreas. It was 66. The vet told me to start her on Pred. I am very worried and upset. Should she have been on it the entire time??? The vet tech is the one that came in and told me. All she said was start the Pred. Am I supposed to do anything with her diet? They also brought her in with a very bloody neck that they didn't even attempt to clean up. As if I haven't been through enough with her. I guess that is why I didn't even ask her the questions I had. I have always liked this vet but now I am starting to have second thoughts. Does anyone know of a good vet for fuzzies in Detroit Michigan area? The one thing she did say is at the least they live 2 months after surgery - gee that's a nice thought to send me on my way. I was told not to do anything differently with her diet or her treats or anything. After reading all of your stories I feel that this sounds wrong. If anyone has any advice or a vet please let me know. Thanks for listening, Stephanie & Marc & the babes - Keegan, Kayla, Maya, and Max 3. 7-year-old Ferret From: "sharon wagner" Date sent: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:16:58 -0400 (EDT) I have a 7 year old who lost all his hair on back and tail in September. Would anyone know what I can use to stop him from licking his fur, I think that is what he is chocking on. His hair is finally starting to come back but he constantly is either licking it and hairball remedy is not helping. I would like to know what else would help. Lynn, just avoid other messages. I really appreciate this site, the people on this site have been very helpful to me in dealing with this, which is much, much easier when you talk with other people who had the same problems. I thought I checked the sites out but can't find what to use on fur besides giving him hair ball remedy so he leaves it alone, it is like peach fur, so it must really itch. 4. Protocol to bring ferrets out of isulinomic seizures? From: Lynn McIntosh Date sent: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:15:57 -0500 Hi. First, thank you to Dr. Murray for answering my question about pediapred and possible hair loss, and for info that reminded me that ultrasound does not rule out adrenal disease, especially in Wally's case where a huge right adrenal was removed. Second, unfortunately our Wally had a very bad seizure, the worst we've ever been through. He was squeeking and jerking, and it was terrible. There is no way I could have gotten anything with glucose in it down his throat. Fortunately we had some 50% dextrose to rub on his gums, which brought him to a limp state (much better) very quickly (and perhaps rubbing something else, such as karo syrup, on his gums here would have also helped). In about a half hour he was able to eat some turkey baby food. I reached my vet about that time, and she gave us information on getting him out of future seizures. The protocol she gave was to inject sub-q .05 % dextrose (10-20ccs), inject under the tongue .5 cc 50% dextrose (she said it sounded awful but that was the best place for absorption), and inject sub-q 1.0 ml. 2 mg/ml dexamethasone. The dextrose would bring him out of the seizure, she said, and the dex would stablize him. I said it sounded extreme, but she pointed out that one can't known how long it will take for them to come out with less extreme methods. At least one vet has said that injecting dextrose sub-q isn't a good idea on a regular basis. What do vets and others think of the above protocol for a ferret in an extreme insulinomic seizure (realizing, of course, that not everyone can or wants to do these things at home)? Also, I'm wondering what others do to bring insulinomic ferrets out of extreme seizures. Thank you, and Happy Easter to those who celebrate it :) Lynn 5. Thank you! From: Cjbandit@aol.com Date sent: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:36:17 EDT HAPPY EASTER THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR ALL THE E-AMILS WITH GOOD ADVICE AND MOST OF ALL FOR ALL YOUR SUPPORT! LOVE, CHRISTINA & BANDIT[Unable to display image] 6. Adrenal ultrasound,pediapred,proglycem,etc. From: AFERRETVET@cs.com Date sent: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 20:16:54 EDT I will try to answer 4 of the recent questions. 1) Adrenal ultrasound: In a study at the Animal Medical Center in New York City (Drs Rosenthal, Quesenberry,etc) only 50% of the diseased adrenal glands were diagnosed by ultrasound, so ultrasound is not an accurate test for adrenal gland disease. Since the smaller adenomas and hyperplasia will be close to normal in size, an ultrasound may not pick them up. In addition the gland(s) may have been normal in size 7 months ago, but it may be larger now. If the hair did not grow back from where the belly was shaved and the hair on the tail is thinning it is real likely Bootsie has adrenal gland disease. It is time to consider surgery or Lupron for Bootsie. 2)Pediapred : Pediapred is not likely to cause Cushing's disease (hair falling out from high cortisol level) esp. on only 1/2 ml twice a day. It sounds more like Wally has both insulinoma and adrenal gland disease. Time to consider surgery or Lupron for Wally. Cataracts are common with insulinoma ferrets. Pred can cause cataracts, and low (and high) glucose levels can also cause cataracts. Low calcium can also cause cataracts. Taurine can cause blindness, but it usually does not cause cataracts. 3) Lupron or Surgery First: It sounds like your vet in Toledo is Dr Susan Orosz. She has indeed done alot of work with Lupron at the U of Tenn. In my opinion surgery is still the first choice for healthy ferrets with adrenal disease and Lupron is the second choice or for those ferrets when surgery is too risky. I also recommend using Lupron after surgery if only 1 gland is removed or if all of the tumor could not be removed. You are right there is sometimes extracapsular adrenal nodules in the fat pad around the adrenal gland(s) esp. in older ferrets and with the larger tumors. On the other hand when you do completely remove both adrenal glands ferrets do crash. It is called an Addison's crisis. The ferret must be treated with pred, and fluids (sodium chloride). When they are stable they will need pred for the rest of their life. Some will also need florinef tablets or percorten-v injections to keep them stable. In addition surgery allows the vet to check the pancreas for insulinomas and the rest of the abdomen for lymphoma. It would be nice to get Dr Orosz to add her comments and reasons about using lupron instead of surgery on the healthy ones. 4) Proglycem: Proglycem is a chocolate-mint flavored liquid. Most ferrets do not like the taste. Here in the Dallas area it cost about $150 for the bottle of 30 mls (1 oz). At the low end of the dose 5 mg (0.1ml) 2 times a day it would last 150 days. Thus it is about $1 a day at the low dose for a 1 kg ferret. It will need to be adjust based on the blood glucose levels just like pediapred. I usually add proglycem after pediapred can no longer control the low blood glucose levels. Proglycem works by inhibiting insulin secretion from the pancreas. Jerry Murray DVM 7. Brewers Yeast From: teckart@oznet.ksu.edu Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:13:39 -0500 I use brewers yeast in our liquid nutritional recipe because of the B vitamins which help to alleviate stress (which is important when maintaining an insulinomic ferret). I do not add additional chromium so the ferrets are only getting what is in the brewers yeast. I'm wondering if there is enough chromium in the brewers yeast to cause a problem? If so, GNC use to make a brewers yeast without chromium - would that be an option? Comments from the vets please. When I was using chromium, I talked with the health food store manager first, and she said that it is the picolenate that would be harmful for ferrets with insulinoma not the chelated. Comments from the vets please. And one more, what about nutritional yeast? Jackie, our insulinomic/adrenal/lympho boy is still with us. His back is bald so he's sporting a reverse mohawk. He's huge but doing relatively well on 1 cc of pred twice a day. He is such a sweetie. Our new little one, Scooby, things that Jackie is a chew toy. He doesn't mean harm, only wants to play, but Jackie doesn't play with other ferrets, only with me. Misty is full adrenal and Rusty and Ferris think she is in season. Rusty doesn't like Ferris because he thinks Misty is his so those two get into it from time to time and Rusty ends up in the cage more often than not. Of course it could be too that Rusty's other adrenal is acting up. Flux is showing thinness of fur between his shoulders. A friend is using the adrenal recipe and she is having good success with it on her two adrenal ferrets. So we might give it a try. Warm hugs to all. tle Troy Lynn Eckart Ferret Family Services http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~sprite/ffs.html http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/5481/ Please sign up to support our charity http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=46&mid=58395 8. Winnie From: Cjbandit@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:39:18 EDT Hi Amy, It's Christina and Bandit, I totally understand what your going through by trying to get the best care for Winnie. It's hard to know what to do sometimes and what treatment to follow because theirs so much info. out there and sometimes different vets suggest different protocols of treatment. My advice to you is based on my own experience of searching for the perfect vet, try to stick with one and lean toward your gut feeling about them also referrals are KEY. Go by others testimonies. What you can do is just speak w/the 2cnd vet who you are considering on the phone and give her/him the backdrop of Winnie's condition and see what she/he says?? Blood Glucose levels are a funny thing hard to figure out- On Ferret Central under Ferret Health and more specifically under "Insulinoma" there is some great information...sorry I don't have the link but FAML will, if interested. Anyway it says there that normal BG levels are between (90-100's) so the vet that said (70) or so was good I just don't know sounds on the low size. The second thing I believe you talked about the first vet suggesting a second med in addition to Pediapred do you remember if it was called Proceglym something like that?? If so again based on what I read from the above site (please visit very informative) that drug is used when the Pediapred is no longer affective Lastly please e-mail me the names and phone#s of vets your treating with and considering treating with. Although I am going to Maryland to see Dr. Weiss for Bandits surgery I would like to know of somebody good thats not to far from me (I'm in New York) I go to Manhattan to (AMC) but you could go for broke going there. Amy good luck and keep me posted (visit the site if you haven't already it will help you make some decisions and answer alot of your questions regarding Winnie) Take Care, Christina 9. Winnie From: "Melissa" Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:16:56 -0400 >10. Winnie's vet visit >From: EquineAmy@aol.com >Date sent: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:44:45 EDT > >....Now here is my guilty part. >The other vet's office called me about 5 pm tonight telling me that the 73 BG >was pretty good but if she was so sickly looking he wants to see her. I did >not tell teh tech at that point I saw a different vet. I know the first vet is >excellant adn very very knowledgable. This second vet seems equally >knowledgable and much more pateint with my questions. The only thing I >hesitate over is that the first vet was recommended to me where I found this >second vet on my own and don't knwo much else about him. Do I need to go back >to this first vet who I know is good or do you think i should try this new guy >for a while... I think you should tell the first vet that you really wanted to see him first but that they hadn't gotten back to you in 48 hours and that the tech who finally did call wasn't able to help you, and -as you told them in your message- Winnie was extremely ill and you couldn't wait any longer, so you took her to another vet. Tell him that the other vet said (whatever they said) and you're going to try that for a few days and see how things go. You can say this very nicely and they'll still "get the message". As a matter of fact if you say it nicely enough (not apologising, not dumping vet #1, just explaining the facts) they'll probably say they're glad you did that and be interested in hearing more about your other visit, and they *may* even apologize. (yeah, it happens). -Melissa __________________________________ http://members.aol.com/NYCFerrets http://home.att.net/~The_Ferrets __________________________________ 10. Proglycem taste From: conejita@earthlink.net Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:52:04 -0400 Hi Everyone: When Saffy was taking Proglycem (thank god she's been given a respite from her meds--I finally had the good sense to take her to Dr. Weiss last fall and he did a partial pancreatectomy that has gotten her off the pred and Proglycem. I only hope she stays this way. Knock wood, all that superstitious stuff.) I read the package insert that came with it that said it was supposedly a "chocolate- mint flavored" suspension. I suppose if one were being charitable, it *could* be described that way. But there's no disagreeing with the ferrets, it is yucky and nasty tasting stuff (me being one of the weird people who tries all the ferrets' meds :-)). Just as an aside, if you have a particularly bad tasting med to give a fert, you may want to look into having a flavoring added at a pharmacy that does compounding. A good, skilled compounding pharmacy can add any number of flavors to a medication or even make a preparation for an animal that is not sold commercially. If you're not sure where to find a compounding pharmacy, ask at your local retail pharmacy. If you get a name for a pharmacy, go in and talk to the staff beforehand about what you'd like done with the meds, ask about any experience they have compounding medication for animals, etc. Make sure you're comfortable with them *before* you give them the prescription to make. Just something I was thinking of. Laura (who is a pharmacy tech but not at a compounding pharmacy) 11. April 20 post (Lupron verses surgery) From: Cjbandit@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:10:48 EDT Hi Joan and all reading: I read your post and I can relate. Just to give you a little backdrop on my situation, my little guy Bandit is 4 and has right adrenal disease and a very low BG reading (52). The first Vet I visited w/ at AMC well renowned place in Manhattan, right off the bat suggested the Lupron this was based on the clinical signs prior to doing the ultra sound and learning it was his right adrenal affected. I was real uncomfortable with that because what if this tumor is cancerous?? I would never know. But at that point Bandit was having difficulty urinating so that was the best treatment in his case then. I So the lupron shot was a one months dose so when that wore off I went back to the vet to see what my next plan of action would be. This time I decided I would see a different vet at (AMC) same place. I had heard she had a lot of experience with Lupron studies so I decided to get the info straight from the horses mouth. She actually said that out of all the studies she's done there was no evidence that suggested that the Lupron shrinks the tumor that it only treats the clinical signs. Now I may be thick or have a tendency to over analyze so I had some questions for her. If the lupron helps decrease the overproduction of overactive hormones in the adrenal glands how come this doesn't inhibit the growth of the tumor?? Is it because the tumor pumps out its own hormones and the lupron does not affect that ?? She said "yes"! It's really frustrating because the vet I saw prior said the opposite, so go figure... I just think nobody really know theirs just not enough info out there. Then again if you really want to pull your hair out I spoke w/someone on-line that lost a ferret to liver disease who also dealt w/adrenal disease in her ferret. It turns out one of the adrenals was treated with lupron and the other left in, to difficult to remove, so treated with lupron. Sadly the ferret past away and an autopsy was done and revealed the lupron shrunk the right tumor by 30%. If she had not done surgery she would not have learned what she did and been able to get the proper treatment. I am a real believer in (natural medicine) and hate the idea of surgery especially when there are no guarantees, but now I have 2 problems-Adrenal and possible Insulinoma so if I can extend his life some and make him a happy boy then I don't see I have an alternative. Right now I'm hand feeding him, he eats well when I do this. However, if I don't do this he doesn't eat the soup or touch the dry food. So I can't go on like this feeding him every (3-4) hours. Just felt like sharing my thoughts and appreciate yours, Christina and Bandit Anybody out there care to comment? 12. Proglycem, Dr. Weiss, Lupron vs surgery, etc. From: "Mary L. McCarty" Date sent: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:11:19 -0400 Julie, >I have posted notes to ask for help on one of my ferrets, Cappuccino. When he >started to lose his fur we braught him to the vet and he though it could be an >adrinal gland tumor. we put him on raw turkey and after a long time started to >go back his fur. so we switched him back to regular ferret food. But the thng is It is common for adrenal ferrets to regrow hair during shedding season. This does not mean raw turkey will cause hair regrowth . He certainly sounds like an adrenal ferret to me, is there a reason why your vet didn't recommend any other treatment than raw turkey? Dale, >with a documented age of 8.5 years. The vet said Odo should like it since it >tastes like mint. Is this true? He said it costs around $90.00 for a year's supply. Kym was using the mint flavor and her ferret hated it (it's pretty much an individual ferret taste thing). She got the flavor changed to bubble gum and that went over much better. I personally would not start out with mint unless you know your ferret likes minty things, they have many other flavors available (she got her's done at a pharmacy in Harleysville - email her if you need to know exactly where). >From everything I've read, one MONTH's supply of Proglycem is around $90 - $125 (depends on the pharmacy). Good luck! Christina, >Just wondering if anyone out there has brought their ferrets to Dr. Weiss for >adrenal surgery and did the cryosurgery? Its a bit of a trip for me about (5 >hours) and I wondered if anyone else has made a trip to see him. I just visited Dr. Weiss last Friday for surgery on Skinny for a right gland cryosurgery and partial pancreatectomy (he had his left gland removed in 5/98). I'm from PA so it was about a 3 hour drive (give or take). He's way out in the boonies, but it was very worth it. If I need cryosurgery again (my regular vet is still working on getting the equipment) I won't hesitate to go there. Just so you know, the new clinic charges much more than he used to charge, so expect to pay more. My surgery cost $391 (which is a bit less than my regular vet, so I wasn't too bothered, but some other people were). Dr. Weiss is absolutely wonderful - he's very personable, very knowledgable and he truly shows his genuine caring for your babies (and he's kinda cute, too ). The only thing that could have been done better is the stitches. He didn't do them quite tight enough. There I am in a hotel room in Baltimore (I was attending the Baltimore SOS show on 4/15), it's after 11pm, I don't know any vet nearby and Skinny's belly is gaping open because the stitches were done too loosely. Luckily a friend reminded me about Super Glue being very handy and off I run to the 7/11. Yep, I superglued the little guy back together (thank goodness I didn't super glue myself to my ferret, now there would be something to explain to the ER staff ). He's doing fine now! Mary, >when they shaved her tummy, just a little peach fuzz. My question is can this >be adrenal (7 mos later) when nothing showed up on the ultrasound? Sure - many times adrenal glands don't show up on ultrasounds and it's also possible that the adrenal gland may not have been a problem at the time of the ultrasound. They can be fine one month and horribly bad the next (at least that's been my experience). Joan, >tilt! So this has been my experience. I'm going by what my Vet says (may be >good may be bad, only time will tell) She goes against evreything Dr. Weiss has >said..surgery first. Lupron only for non-surgical candidates. She did a talk for >the Vets in my area, telling them about using Lupron first. My 2 were So your vet recommends Lupron treatment and then surgery or no surgery at all now that Lupron is available? Can I ask why she does not agree with Dr. Weiss' findings? Not every surgery will be successful, but I've had too many successes to stop doing it because of a few that didn't work out. Maybe this is the best thing for your babies, it's not for me to say, but unless she has solid reasoning behind her thinking I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dr. Weiss' (and other good vets) research. Mary Mary McCarty-Houser, Director Pennsylvania Ferret Rescue Association of Centre County http://www.ferretrescue.com http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=9903&mid=114508 ----------------------- End of FAIML #415 -------------------------