From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:53 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@uswest.net Subject: FAIML #487; Dec. 7, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #487; Dec. 7, 2000 LOST POST! Hi. I managed to lose a post today and for some reason couldn't retrieve it. And it was from a new poster, too, so I feel particularly bad. If you sent me a post and you don't see it here, please resend it! And let me know if you'd like me to send it out right away rather than holding it for the next list. I would be glad to do so. My aplogies to you. Lynn There are seven messages in today's list: Colitis? Victoria Jonesy Dustie in Austin Diabetes after insulinoma diabetic insulinomic ferret Diabetic Ferret FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is list featuring support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. It comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the urgency and number of posts. It is the opinion, only, of subscribers, and is not intended as medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is exhibiting signs of illness please take him or her to the most ferret-experienced vet you can. A ferret-experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide for your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE and FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: For more info, check out Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Past FAIMLs are archived there, with a search feature, and there is a FAIML album featuring pictures of FAIML subscribers and their ferrets. FERRET CENTRAL WEBSITE and PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: Ferret Central Website is the grand intersection of ferret websites, at . You can also find the Ferret FAQs there, which include invaluable FAQs on insulinoma and adrenal diseases. I forward these two FAQs to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care. FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. Date sent: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:21:04 -0700 From: "Glenn Johnson" Subject: Colitis? Hello Ferret lovers, Seeing the posts on colitis, I'm starting to wonder if my Chuki may have it. He's a 7.5 year old insulinomic guy, on Pred, that came down with ECE in Oct. While he is eating well and maintaining his weight, his stools are still soft with too much liquid in them. In addition to all the things normally done for ECE, he has been on Amforol, tried Immodium AD, and still gets Kaopectate, 1 cc twice daily. Is there a visible difference between colitis and a runny stool from some other cause? I'm now tempted to try Flagyl, but would like to hear any pro/cons that any of you may have, from experience. (I'm aware that it's tough to administer) Also, what is a correct dosage? Many thanks, Bless the ferrets, Glenn and Chuki Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:29:20 EST From: StacyRayburnS@aol.com Subject: Victoria Just an update about Victoria, my little girl who wasn't eating and was rubbing her teeth on everything. She is finished with her antibiotics and seems to be feeling better. She is eating ensure mixed with gerber turkey food along with her nutracal. She seems to really like this and is eating it on her own. Thank god, I was really hating having to force feed her. She is lots more active and somewhat back to her own personality. Thanks so much for all your support and information. It's nice to have people to answer questions. Thanks Stacy Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:27:39 -0600 From: "Sue Stout" Subject: Jonesy Jonesy is my insulinomic ferret. Many of you have helped me through the many crises we have had. I am not giving the Proglycem..he could not tolerate it. He is still on 0.5ml of prednisolone BID and gets Hills AD at least 2x/day. I am beginning to think he doesn't eat if I don't give him his Hills AD. Jonesy has always been shaped like a pear, but has been becoming flabbier and more like a "water weight" abdomen. He has started losing hair .. tail, and body. He even has some bare patches on him now. He seems to be very tired all the time, but will attempt to play with his favorite remote control when encouraged. His eyes look sad now. He spends his time in his hammock sleeping when in his cage. He is losing weight (tonight even his abdomen is looking "thinner"), and occasionally has what appears as hind end weakness. Today he developed very loose stools. Stools are normal color and not green, just loose and watery and smelly. The humans of the house have had respiratory flu for what seems to be forever. (With 4 humans getting it at different times, you can imagine how long the bug has been in the air). I started him on some amoxicillin and gave him some ferret lax (in case he had a blockage). I found what appeared to be ascablike object of dried blood outside his ear. (Yes, I inspected it at great length and it was dried blood). I am not sure where it originated from..but as I said,I found iton his head by his ear. I was unable to find anywhere that has a sore or abrasion, and his ears appear to be clear and free of any kind of discharge. There are no fleas, ticks or other parasites on his body or on any of the other ferrets in the house. I know this will sound strange, but he smells sick. I rewashed all the bedding in the cage because of his odor being all over. His cage mateseven have the odor. I hate to put him in a smaller cage by himself, he has always been with the others and I don't want him to feel lonely or depressed. I have reread the adrenal package that Lynn sent and it sure sounds like Jonesy is now adrenal as well as insulinomic. Loose stools don't fit though. Any and all suggestions, advise, etc. would be appreciated. Guess I just needed to "talk" with other who have been through or are going through this same thing. Thanks in advance, Sue and the gang of 6 Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:30:19 EST From: AFERRETVET@cs.com Subject: Dustie in Austin Hi Lynne, After reading about Dustie, I doubt the fluid in his lungs is allergy related. Because Dustie is 10 years old and on Pred, it is more likely due to fluid retention from the pred or from heart disease. An ultrasound of his heart and lungs will answer that question. It is probably time to add lasix to control the fluid build up. Also time to add proglycem, so you can lower the amount of pred needed. Plus proglycem will also help control the fluid buildup. There is a surgical referral center there in Austin, that you may want to consider, if you decide to remove the tumor on his tail. Hope that helps. Jerry Murray, DVM. Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:19:04 EST From: AFERRETVET@cs.com Subject: Diabetes after insulinoma Hi Pam, Your ferret, who had insulinoma surgery and was being treated with pred and proglycem, now has diabetes. This is a rare situation that does happen! If it happens right after the surgery it will usually take care of it self in a few days. In your case, where it has been months since the surgery, Sonic will need to be treated like a diabetic. STOP the pred and the proglycem as these both raise the blood sugar levels. Give SQ fluids or IV fluids to correct the dehydration and electrolyte changes. Then it is time to start on insulin. The dosage will depend on her weight and how she responds to the insulin. We treat these ferrets similar to the diabetic cats (ie start at 1 unit per kg, 2 times a day, recheck glucose levels in 1 week, adjust dosage as needed, recheck in 1 week, etc..etc). The bad news is these ferrets are really hard to get back into the normal blood glucose range. I would continue feeding her as much as possible. Chromium or brewer's yeast would be good for this ferret because they do help to lower high blood glucose levels. Again avoid carbohydrates and sugary treats. Good Luck with her. Jerry Murray, DVM Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:29:20 -0800 From: "E. Rain" Subject: diabetic insulinomic ferret Pam S asked about insulinomic ferrets going diabetic. My Lemke is probably the case you read about in the FAIML archives. we will never know for sure what actually caused Lem's diabetes however subsequent primafacie evidence leads us to believe it may have been a weird form of pancreatitis. After Lem had been on insulin for about 9 months he developed what we thought was bronchitis and we put him on baytril (antibiotic) which immediately cleared up the diabetes. we took him off the baytril (a little quickly) the diabetes came back. we put him back on it for a couple full weeks, and the diabetes has not been seen again. I don't say this is what's going on with your little one, who could know why it worked with Lemke, but it might be worth trying the baytrill for a week or two to see if it clears up or not... you could save yourself and your ferret from administering shots & monitoring sugar levels that you'd both be much happier skipping. If that doesn't work out & you need some info on life with a diabetic ferret please feel free to contact me. Eden ______________________________________________________ WARNING: Dates on the calendar are closer than they appear! Eden Rain raghead@liripipe.com Date sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:10:46 -0500 From: "Judith White" Subject: Diabetic Ferret I wanted to send you (and the FAIML if you think people would want to see it) a copy of what I sent to the FML in response to a woman whose ferret developed diabetes after surgery for insulinoma. I've meant to write this up for you for ages, but then I never seem to get to half I mean to do..... I hope you are well! -------------- My 6 yo darling Sabine/the Bean/Silver Queen/Queen Bean has diabetes and receives injections of insulin at fairly regular intervals (varying from every other day to twice a day). She had one large insulinoma removed and was put on pred. When she started to seem a little shaky again, I increased her dosage, thinking that I knew what I was doing after having 3 ferrets with insulinoma. Wrong. She got weak and sleepy, drank and peed ounces and ounces of water, and finally began to smell very sweet, especially her breath. (I seem to be the only one who notices this symptom, but it can be very strongly sweet to my nose.) Having a niece with juvenile diabetes, a bell went off in my head and Sabine and I took off for the vet. The vet got her off prednisone as quickly as possible and called in a prescription for human DNA insulin Humulin U Ultralente. The 10 ml bottle lasts for months and months if you keep it refrigerated, don't let it freeze, and don't let it stay at room temperature for any length of time. She also prescribed a box of 10 bags of 10 syringes 3/10 cc. They are so fine it is very easy to give the injection. One unit per injection seems to work, though this will vary with ferret and diet. If her glucose is very high, I just test her urine between 6 and 8 hours later to see if she needs another unit. My niece and I tried to test Sabine's blood glucose, but those soft little pads are very tough and I couldn't get a decent drop of blood. I wanted to be able to do this in an emergency, because the glucose in her urine actually reflects her condition several hours earlier. I keep a clean, empty litter box and confine her to a small isolation area once or twice a day (with food, water and sleep sack). I try to catch her when she's been sleeping for a while in the hope that she'll pee soon and won't be locked up too long... she is a little tired of this routine! After the original good cleaning, I only use hot hot water to rinse out the box for fear that soap or cleansers will affect the reading on the glucose strips. I use the Keto-Diastix rather than the Diastix because they have more gradations and more precise measurements of the amount of glucose in the urine. Sabine has not registered any ketones since we first got her under treatment, but I still prefer those strips (the price is the same). Ketones are BAD... they indicate an outrageous amount of glucose in the urine. My pharmacist can't believe how high The Bean's urine glucose levels can go without her going into a coma or something (the top reading on the sticks is 2000) but I guess ferrets fare better in this than humans. I'm not sure how blood and urine glucose levels compare, but my niece went into a coma at a 400 blood glucose level. I only give her insulin if her urine glucose registers at least in the first green area, never if there is no glucose in her urine at all. After at least 6 months, Sabine's glucose levels were way high again, and even taking her up to 5-7 units of insulin barely controlled it. My vet figured that she had become resistant to the human DNA insulin and was able to order pork-based insulin. (Both types are made by Lilly.) The pork insulin is working well and she is down to one unit/injection again. I think there may also be a beef-based insulin around. I recommend that your vet try to get you the pork immediately. I think what they have in stock is all there is. I don't think they're manufacturing it anymore because the human DNA works better for humans. Three different ferrets I know of all died because their diabetes wasn't diagnosed in time. There is some speculation that the pred may cause the problem if the pancreas has totally forgotten how to create insulin while the insulinoma was creating so much. Some ferrets only become diabetic for a period of time; then their pancreas gets back to doing its proper job and they are no longer diabetic. One side effect for Sabine has been that she refuses to eat TF anymore, though she ate it happily for 6 years. Now she will only eat cheap Whiskas cat food from the grocery store. I guess she developed a diabetic sweet tooth. Her tastes have obviously changed, anyway. She is also now indifferent to raisins half the time. To give The Bean her injection, I put a little puddle (one tsp?) of olive oil in a little dish on the counter, and while she is licking that up, I pull up the skin behind her shoulder blades, press my finger under the part I've pinched to make a little tent-dent, and quickly give her the injection. She almost never seems to notice. Your vet can teach you in one minute. I still get the willies doing it sometimes, but it is very easy. One consequence is that I never feel quite right about leaving Sabine in someone else's care when I want to go away. I really must monitor her glucose levels regularly. If I give her more insulin than she needs, she could go into a convulsion from a severe insulinoma hypoglycemic episode and have to be given Karo or honey on the gums, followed by a high protein meal. Low glucose is immediately threatening. However, sustained high glucose is very hard on their systems, too. Sabine likes to be held and cuddled more these days, anyway! She sleeps a lot, but she still has to sniff the world and check it all out. She seems slow, but happy. I carry her upstairs and sometimes down, but that's fine. Please write if you have any other questions. And anyone else who wants to trade helpful hints, too. My vet would be very willing to talk with your vet, I'm sure. Dr. Anna Edling, Hickory Veterinary Hospital 2303 Hickory Road Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462 (610) 828-3054 Blessings Judith ---------------------- End of FAIML #487 ------------------------