From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 1:22 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@uswest.net Subject: FAIML #488; Dec. 10, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #488; Dec. 10, 2000 There are ten messages in today's list: Bear> Adrenal/Low Energy Sonic (insulinoma --> diabetes) Vandyl Sulfate Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Sonic (insulinoma to diabetes) Sonic (insulinoma to diabetes) New "Lighter" Subject FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a list featuring support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. It comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the urgency and number of posts. It is the opinion, only, of subscribers, and is not intended as medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is exhibiting signs of illness please take him or her to the most ferret-experienced vet you can find. A ferret-experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide for your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading and send to . Remember: the more specific you can be in your subject heading the greater the chance someone will be able to find your important info when searching the archives. URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I get it; then I'll include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE and FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: For more info, check out Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Past FAIMLs are archived there, with a search feature, and Michael is kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and their ferrets in a FAIML Album. FERRET CENTRAL WEBSITE and PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: Ferret Central Website is the grand intersection of ferret websites, at . You can also find the Ferret FAQs there, which include invaluable FAQs on insulinoma and adrenal diseases. I forward these two FAQs to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send new subscribers the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam has also compiled excellent FAQ's about general ferret care. FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Plus, it comes out daily. I encourage people to cross post on the FML and FAIML to get the most possible exposure and feedback. Visit FERRET CENTRAL website (you can find its address in the paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. Date sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: "sej" Subject: Bear> Adrenal/Low Energy Hello! Am a new subscriber. I am fostering a black-eyed white male ferret named Bear. He was turned into a local WA shelter in September, with chest tumors. The tumors turned out to be breast cancer and were removed, and the vet diagnosed Adrenal. He is on monthly Lupron shots. His age is unknown. He is thought to be only 2.5 years, but only by tooth condition. He eats and poops well. Drinks more than normal. He does have his fur, but gets red skin lesions on and off. He has an EXTREMELY enlarged spleen. He weighs about six pounds, but I really think most of it is that spleen! I have only had him two weeks, and I just got the medical history from vet last week. My concern is that he doesn't seem to have alot of energy. He'll check out the house for a few minutes, then find the dirty laundry and snuggle in for a long nap. He may or may not get up in an hour or so to look around. If he does, it is only for a couple minutes and to get a drink or bite of food. I do have him on Timmy's Tonic, as the shelter said it might help, and couldn't hurt. His behaviour is extremely cuddly with people. He is a total submissive with my other ferrets, and won't or can't play with them (probably due to the disease, surgery, trauma, ungainly weight, etc.). Anyway, does anyone have any ideas to get his energy up? Thank you. Date sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:20:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Pam Sessoms" Subject: Sonic (insulinoma --> diabetes) THANKS so much to those who have offered advice and similar experiences (formerly insulinomic ferrets becoming diabetic)! Not only is the raw information helpful, but it is also nice to know that others have been through this as well. Sonic is doing OK but of course we're still really worried. Dr. Murray, an especially big thanks to you, it sounds like you've seen your share of this. Yeah, by all accounts, it seems to be hard to regulate ferrets on insulin... A really weird one was a case my vet came across (on VIN, I think) where the owners had to give pred some weeks and insulin others, depending on what was happening - amazingly the ferret lived fairly well for two years like that. I've added the brewer's yeast, I hope it will help. She's been on Bob's Chicken Gravy for a long time with the insulinoma, it sounds like insulinoma and diabetes diets are kinda similar. Have you ever had problems stopping the pred cold turkey? My vet is currently suggesting a fast wean away from it but worries about stopping suddenly. The diazoxide has already been stopped. Eden, that's SO interesting about the Baytril! I'll run it by my vet but suspect my girl's case is different. Judith, you've been wonderful through this. Thank you so much! Thanks for all the help! I'll let y'all know how she does. -Pam S. Date sent: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:44:54 -0500 From: "Michael F. Janke" Subject: Vandyl Sulfate I went to my vet today for Lupron and was talking to him about Beasley's insulinoma and the amount of pred he gets. He went to some sort of seminar recently and was interested in what the holistic vet had to say about Vandyl Sulfate for hypoglycemia. Here's what I found on the 'net about it. "Vanadyl Sulfate contains vanadium and sulphur atoms combined into molecules. Vanadyl Sulfate has insulin-like effects on glucose metabolism, and can influence levels of Insulin, with results that appear to be parallel to or greater than GTF Chromium. It has been shown to lower elevated insulin levels in rats fed high-fructose diets compared to controls. Vanadyl Sulfate has also been shown to lower high blood pressure in the same rats, as a result of the reduction in excess insulin. Vanadyl Sulfate partially restored insulin production in diabetic rats' pancreas tissue. Three weeks of Vanadyl Sulfate treatment, followed by 13 weeks without it, still protected the size and insulin content of pancreas islets. It also maintained glucose tolerance regardless of insulin levels. In another study on diabetic rats, Vanadyl Sulfate maintained the normal levels of glucose, lipids, creatinine, and thyroid hormone. It also corrected abnormalities in heart function and in glycerol output from adipose tissue." Anyone have any experience or knowledge of this stuff? Interestingly enough, it seems to be recommended for diabetics too. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * South Florida Ferret Help Line, 305-752-7040 * * Website: http://www.miamiferret.org * Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc Date sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:36:26 -0500 From: "Carrie Miller" Subject: Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret MODERATOR'S NOTE: Because I lost this post it was sent out in- between the last list and this, current, list. It is being re-posted again in the list following it's distribution. Lynn, It was my POST, I'll paste it to this message! Thanks for letting me know it got lost. It's a good thing, becuase i have more questions to add to it since yesterday!!! Thank you all so much for this helpful information! My 3 year old male ferret named Martin just had his left adrenal gland removed, and I'm very confused about what happens next with this disease! His surgery was 8 days ago, and he still seems to be loosing fur on his back (his belly is completely shaved of course, but thankfully that is starting to grow back!). He was taking out his own stitches, so this week our vet placed him in one of those large surgical collars. He is just miserable. He won't eat, he's not very active, and he is being an absolute monster when it comes to taking his antibiotics. He used to be silly and playful, now he's very grouchy and almost mean. My vet's office has been wonderful, but unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to answer a lot of my questions because they don't see ferrets that often. Last night I tried feeding him turkey flavored baby food (as reccommended at Ferret Central) and he seemed to enjoy it, but laster threw it up (quite a mess in his surgical collar, I must say!) Does anyone know if this is normal post-surgery behavior? Will his personality go back to normal? Will he continue to loose his fur, or how long will it take to grow back? What type of care is needed for adrenal disease after they have surgery? Can anyone give me any suggestions as to how to get him to eat/keep his food down? Does anyone know of any ferret groups or anyone in the Orlando area who has been through this mess before? I would appreciate any information you can offer! I also have a 1 year old named Timmy, who is very disturbed by Martin's new personality. Thanks again! Carrie also, I have a new e-mail address: carriem73@hotmail.com Date sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:40:21 -0500 From: "Carrie Miller" Subject: Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Thanks for the info! Martin has been eating small amounts of solid food since his surgery (the vet did not suggest any other type!), and we did give him water with an eye dropper for the first few days. He's very good about drinking on his own now. I started the turkey baby food because he seemed to stop eating after he was placed in the surgical collar (1 week after the surgery). He may have just been grouchy becasue of that, so I have kept solid food available for him too. I'm planning on trying the baby food again this evening and will call the vet if he vomits again. (I think the first time out he may have just eaten it too fast, he really seemed to enjoy it!) His energy level was also good before the dreaded addition of the surgical collar, I'm hoping it just may take him a few days to get used to that. He gets his stitches out on Tuesday, I will ask the vet about a consult then. Thanks for the help, I look forward to hearing from everyone else too! Date sent: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:14:57 -0500 From: "katharine" Subject: Help Needed: FL post-surgery ferret Carrie wrote: . He recovered very quickly and was playing with his mates within 3-4 days, closely supervised. I moved him back in with them after about 6 days. I can't imagine what has changed Martin's disposition other than that d**n Elizabethan collar. I think I would be quite miserable with that also. Is it possible it's stressing him out so badly he can't keep food down? His stitches are probably healed by now so maybe they (and the collar) can be removed. I would suspect you'll see a big change in his attitude. In the meantime, maybe he'll eat some soup. If you would like my recipe, I'll be happy to send it. However, the baby food, maybe mixed with some whipping cream, will be just fine on a temporary basis. You might also try softening his regular kibble with warm water. Mine seem to think that's a special treat. Is he pawing at his mouth? That could be an indication of ulcers and a round of Carafate might be in order. Carafate is pretty tasteless so it should be fine mixed with his baby food. May I ask why he's on antibiotics? They are not normally given after adrenal surgery, to the best of my knowledge (and experience, having gone through 4 adrenal surgeries). Does he have something else going on? Those should be just about over also. It sounds like taking the meds might be stressing him out also. How do his stools look? Is everythink OK there? That's about all I can think of. Please keep us posted on Martin's progress. If things don't improve very quickly, you might consider taking him to see Dr. Kemmerer in Gainesville. She is one of the top ferret vets in the country. There is also a ferret organization in the Orlando area who might be able to point you to another vet there. Debbie Coburn is involved but I don't have information on the address or phone number. Perhaps someone else on this list could help. Katharine Date sent: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:56:18 EST From: Cjbandit@aol.com Subject: Help needed: FL post-surgery ferret Hi, It could be the antibiotic that isn't agreeing with him. My bandit did not take well to one either (forgot the name). How much longer for the stitches before there removed?? The collar is probably stressing him out- see how soon you can take it off and ask about maybe switching antibiotics. Try to make sure he has something in his tummy before giving him the meds.. I hope he feels better soon. Christina & Bandit Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:07:39 -0500 From: "Bruce Williams, DVM" Subject: Sonic (insulinoma to diabetes) MODERATOR'S NOTE: The following two messages previously appeared in the FML, and are being posted in FAIMl with Dr. William's and Pam's permission. Lynn Dear Pam: >THANKS, as always, for your help. Yes, given the trace ketones, we've >stepped up the pred weaning and she'll be off of it in less than a week. >A vet on another list suggested I stop it cold turkey, but others have >warned of problems with not weaning it gradually away... a bit frightening >to me... Your point that insulin and pred can be used at the same time, >but with difficulty, helps ease my mind a lot. After the time Sonic has been on it, a week is close to cold turkey - although we know that in most individuals, long-term pred does not result in adrenocortical atrophy, as it does in other species, you don't want to take the chance that Sonic is one of the rare few who has had adrenal changes. We'll know in a week. Doing some reflection on this problem, it seems that taking Sonic off the pred and proglycem (can't remember if he is on it or not) is probably the best first step in treating this case. While this is still an unusual circumstance - an insulinoma ferret progressing to diabetes - there are a couple of explanations. One is that we have over-administered prednisone and proglycem to the point that we have caused diabetes. We know prednisone counteracts hypoglycemia in two ways - by increasing the production of glucose in the liver, and secondly, by causing insulin resistance at target cells. PRoglycem decreases insulin release by islet cells. I would submit this as the most likely cause of those rare ferrets on long-term prednisone and proglycem resulting in diabetes - we have caused sufficient systemic insulin resistance and inhibited the release of insluin by the tumor and the normal islets that we have created a diabetic state. There are a couple of other possibilities, but they are far less likely. One would be chronic pancreatitis, resulting in loss of the insulinoma and sufficent islets to have low levels of insulin and diabetes, and the second would be the rare production of amyloid in the tumor. Amyloid is a protein that we seen occasionally in both islet cell tumors and in normal islets whose presence eventually results in significantly diminished insulin production. Of course, the possibility of glucagonoma is always there - not to say that a ferret can't get it, but I have yet to see one, and I've looked for them in such cases. (Yes, I do use immunohistochemical stains which are specific for the various pancreatic hormones - insulin, glucagon, somatostatin, etc. when I come across insulinomas which have an aberrant clinical profile - such as yours.) I think that it is key that we dclosely monitor the blood glucose as we decrease the drugs, to make sure we don't fly down into the hypoglycemic state again. At any rate - this sounds like a very interesting case. I've got my fingers crossed for Sonic, and in case that is not enough, I've got the immunohistochemical stains at the ready... With kindest regards, Bruce Williams, dVM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:38:47 -0500 From: Pam Sessoms Subject: Sonic (insulinoma to diabetes) Dr. Williams, *WOW* thanks so much for all your thoughts here! Sonic was indeed originally on both proglycem (diazoxide) and pred. We stopped the diazoxide completely once the trace ketones showed up, and and that point we stepped up efforts to wean her off of the pred a bit more quickly than we originally were doing. I'm watching her like a hawk and dipsticking urine every chance I get and checking blood sugar nearly ever day (still in the 300's)... I really hope that by some miracle her blood sugar will come into a normal range without insulin... But we will have to start insulin if her ketones go up or if we get her totally off pred and still have really high blood sugar. She is doing OK and enjoying all the pampering. And I am deeply moved that you would look at her pancreas if she doesn't make it... It's been very hard for me to think about it, but I had already decided that if she died before your offer for eyes of blind ferrets expired, then they would go to you. Your work is invaluable to the future medical possibilities of these guys, *especially* since you make what you find so freely available. You are a rare find: one who is tops in your field and also so accessible. Thank you! Best wishes to all, -Pam S. Date sent: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:42:09 EST From: DWall1008@aol.com Subject: New "Lighter" Subject I know this list usually deals more with health issues and serious stuff. I have learned alot and I am so glad that I receive all of this information. To that end, I now have six little fuzzies and have learned that this would be considered a "business" (pack of ferrets). Any ways, I have noticed that they seem bored. They are out for a couple of hours each morning and another hour or so at nite. I take time to play with each one and try to alternate various toys and things to do. Can anyone suggest games or household toys to keep them amused? They have several balls, and giant tubes to scurry thru. Also how about some safe healthful snacks to give them. Right now rewards are bandit treats (since five of the six are marshall ferrets) and sometimes half raisins. I am careful to examine the ingridients on commercially sold snacks even if they are marked for ferrets I'm not always impressed with what they are made of. Some are labeled with "real cheese" and "real peanuts" o! r all sorts of wheat and other " fillers". Stuff I would never give my guys. I would welcome all suggestions as I feel mental health could be as important as physical health and recovery. Thanks Everyone! MODERATOR'S NOTE: At first I thought this was off topic and even thought of rejecting it, though I rarely reject posts, particularly those that deal with non-adrenal or non-insulinoma medical issues. But then I realized that I agreed with the poster, mental health is key to physical health and recovery. I also have a hard time keeping my fur kids amused, though three are over seven and one six-and-a-half, the other five.... so they are slowing down a bit. They are such smart little buggers, and need so much attention, that this can be a real challenge. In summer I can take them out in our semi-ferret-proofed backyard, but winter is tougher. :) Lynn ---------------------- End of FAIML #488 ------------------------