From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 3:03 PM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Subject: FAIML #492; Dec. 23, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #492; Dec. 23, 2000 There are six messages in today's list: bilateral adrenal Thanks on adrenal question - medication question Clint Please post-various Adrenal atypical hair loss atypical adrenal symptoms Adrenal asymmetrical hair loss; bi-adrenalectomies/vena cava ligations FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a list featuring support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. It comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the urgency and number of posts. It is the opinion, only, of subscribers, and is not intended as medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is exhibiting signs of illness please take him or her to the most ferret-experienced vet you can find. A ferret-experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide for your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading and send to . Remember: the more specific you can be in your subject heading the greater the chance someone will be able to find your important info when searching the archives. URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I get it; then I'll include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE and FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: For more info, check out Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Past FAIMLs are archived there, with a search feature, and Michael is kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and their ferrets in a FAIML Album. FERRET CENTRAL WEBSITE and PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: Ferret Central Website is the grand intersection of ferret websites, at . You can also find the Ferret FAQs there, which include invaluable FAQs on insulinoma and adrenal diseases. I forward these two FAQs to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send new subscribers the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam has also compiled excellent FAQ's about general ferret care. FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Plus, it comes out daily. I encourage people to cross post on the FML and FAIML to get the most possible exposure and feedback. Visit FERRET CENTRAL website (you can find its address in the paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:59:12 EST From: AnnH330@aol.com Subject: bilateral adrenal Hi all, Happy holidays to you and your fuzzies. I have a question that I am posting to both FML and FAIML in hopes of obtaining wisdom from those of you who have been there. I have a 5 1/2 yr old MF spayed female. She had her left adrenal removed at age 3. She began to lose her hair all over her body in fall of 1999. For reasons I won't go into, her vet and I considered her a poor surgical risk at the time so the vet started her on the 4mo depot of Lupron. Her first injection was in 10/99. She has had a total of 4 injections with the last one in 11/00. She recently started to show some loss of hair at the base of her tail on one side. It would appear that the Lupron isn't working as well this time since she has the hair loss. My vet and I are discussing the possibility of doing a right adrenal surgery. The reasons that she was a poor risk 2 yrs ago apparently are no longer a factor. I know there are others out there who have experience with bilateral adrenalectomies in your fuzzies. Could you please share your experiences. Such as how the fuzzie did after both adrenals were out. How long did they live after surgery, how was the quality of life, any health problems attributed to the lack of adrenals, any medications to make up for loss of hormones as a result of no adrenal glands. I would appreciate any input from those of you who have personally experienced this. Thanks in advance. I have posed this question to Dr Williams and he has kindly responded to my question (thanks Dr Williams) but I would also like some input from others who have had this done to their fuzzie. Take care of your kids and give them fuzzie hugs and I hope Santa is good to all. Ann, Cinnamon, Jillian, Zoey and Wriggley, sadly missing Sabrina and Pepper. Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:46:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Laura Grant" Subject: Thanks on adrenal question - medication question Hi! Thanks to all who responded to my post about Clint (there were too many to reply to individually right now!)- I plan on getting in touch with the vet today to schedule surgery for hopefully sometime early next week. ( We will be out of town for a couple of days this weekend - family members will be ferret sitting) Someone mentioned a medication that can shrink/ease the prostate problems while waiting for surgery. Anyone know what it is? Thanks again and I'll keep you updated! Laura Arnold, Clint, and Sophie Date sent: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:27:45 -0500 From: "Lisa LoRe" Subject: Clint In the latest issue, Laura had a question regarding her ferret Clint. He was presenting with atypical signs of an adrenal tumor and she wasn't sure if she should go ahead with surgery. My 3 ½ year old ferret, Cleo is also presenting with atypical hair lose (the tail base is fine), but my vet is sure it is an adrenal tumor. I don't want to put my baby through surgery if it possibly not needed. If anyone has advice for Laura, could you send it to me also? Thanks!!!! Date sent: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:51:20 +0000 From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Subject: Please post-various Laura, You wrote: >SNIP> > symptoms.) All of the adrenal ferrets he has seen have had the typical > hair loss starting at the base of the tail and progressing upward. Clint's > hair loss is on his belly and right side, behind the right ear, between the > "shoulder blades", and on his toes. His tail is fine, especially the base! > He does present with other symptoms I've mentioned before - sexual > behavior towards Sophie, ferret #3 in the pecking order, some lethargy, > frequent urination and not much urine each time (urine has been checked > for stones - negative). Guess I am just wanting reassurance that to go > ahead with surgery is the right thing? This may be atypical, but it still points to adrenal disease. Any time urination is affected, you should not wait! Too many chances for a blockage in these cases, in my experience. Christy, > Can you give me somewhere to contact for help.I have a ferret with > LYPHOPLASMACYTIC ENTERITIS. My vet is about used all his > resoures and my boy is not getting better.I tried contacting Dr Bruce > Williams but the e-mail adresses I used said complete total faliure. Any > one who has a ferret with this or any suggestions will help. Was this diagnosed through a biopsy? Can you post the complete pathology report, or send it to me privately? This may actually be eosinophilic gastroenteritis, which responds to a particular treatment. What medications are you currently using or have not helped in the past? What testing was done? I'll be happy to help with this with more info. -Dr. Karen DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is provided for general informational purposes only. It is in no way intended as a replacement for a consultation with a qualified licensed veterinarian. If you are concerned about your pet's health, you should seek the advice of your regular veterinarian as soon as possible. Date sent: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:50:20 EST From: LDarkes@aol.com Subject: Adrenal atypical hair loss Hi Laura, Regarding Clint's atypical hair loss, none of my adrenal guys had the typical hair loss pattern either. Bandit first loss the fur on his head and feet, then later it progressed to his tail and up his back. My Jasmine lost the fur between her shoulder blades first, which progressed to her head as well as her tail area. Mandrake only ever showed thinning of the fur on her flanks -- no hair loss anywhere else. I would be concerned about the urination difficulty -- you don't want to wait so long that a blockage occurs as that is very serious stuff. Best wishes to you and Clint. Lucie Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:00:24 -0500 From: "Lisa J. Rodriguez" Subject: atypical adrenal symptoms hi there - i need to pipe in here cause i've lost 3 ferrets to undiagnosed adrenal disease and i can't say enuf to encourage people NOT to count on that typical hairloss. my apologies for length.... my sully showed very little hair loss, none of it typical. his coat got sparse and he was doing a LOT of the 'drag the pretty little girl around' behaviour (the low one on the pecking order), he had stinky urine and lots of little puddles rather than big ones, and otherwise he was lethargic. i could NOT get a vet to diagnose adrenal disease because 'of course he's not adrenal, he still has hair on his tail' - faugh. then i went to see dr. weiss and his comment was "his back toes are balding" which aparently he sees a LOT with adrenal ferrets. dr. weiss did surgery and sully had a HUGE tumour on his adrenal gland - dr. weiss said it was one of the biggest he has ever seen. marble sized. post surgery, sully is like a new little boy and never bothered his sister again. big puddles, and spunky :) i mention the toes because i had two ferrets who had died before this who had had bald toes. the vet i had been going to told me that the one 'probabaly had adrenal problems but since he already had one surgery it's inoperable' and that little guy, gusto, suffered for a year from the urinary problems etc before he died. the other was bailey, my little albino girl. one winter she had her coat come in so sparse she was almost bald - the vet's comment? "sometimes albno's just have coats that look like crap" when the fur grew in in the spring, bailey was bald down her chest from neck to tail. the vet just said 'how odd' and NEVER seupected adrenal. both gusgus and bailey had bald toes..... and lastly i mention azure who died 2 months after her surgery on the same day as her brother sully. she must have been having undiagnosed adrenal problems for at least a year. she had bald toes. she ITCHED something fierce. not a bit of hair loss. the old vet had told me it was alergies. poor azure endured all sorts of shampooing and skin creams. when she finally got to dr. weiss, he ended up removing both adrenal glands, her spleen and 20% of her pancreas. she felt better in the weeks after surgery than she had for a year. my poor little girl, in the end the skin problems had become too severe and i lost her this past july. i wish i had seen dr. weiss sooner....... i would say that your assesment of there being an adrenal problem is right on target - i am NOT a vet, please don't hold me liable. i am only saying this because i miss my 3 who were not diagnoed correctly cause they hadn't read the book and didn't know they should lose the hair on their tails.... check his back toes.....even my local ferret shelter watches for that sign, and when they see it they have the kiddo checked out as completly as possible..... good luck to you and you fur kiddo....i hope everything turns out well..... lisa and the remaining 3 - sully, momo, and simon >Date sent: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:21:46 -0800 (PST) >From: "Laura Grant" >Subject: need additional info on atypical adrenal hair loss >I posted a couple of weeks ago about my 3 1/2 yr. old ferret Clint >whom we suspect has adrenal disease. I found a vet here in Oklahoma >City that has done numerous surgeries and has seen ferrets for over 20 >yrs. He is very knowledgeable about ferrets, and stays up with ferret >health topics, but he said he has never seen an adrenal ferret with the >type of hair loss Clint has, and is hesitant to operate - afraid it might be >unnecessary or too early in the disease to tell which gland is affected. >(He usually diagnoses and treats adrenals based on presenting >symptoms.) All of the adrenal ferrets he has seen have had the typical >hair loss starting at the base of the tail and progressing upward. Clint's >hair loss is on his belly and right side, behind the right ear, between the >"shoulder blades", and on his toes. His tail is fine, especially the base! >He does present with other symptoms I've mentioned before - sexual >behavior towards Sophie, ferret #3 in the pecking order, some lethargy, >frequent urination and not much urine each time (urine has been checked >for stones - negative). Guess I am just wanting reassurance that to go >ahead with surgery is the right thing? Or should he have the Tennessee >panel done before, just to make sure? My vet is willing to do whatever >we decide, so we want to make the best decision for Clint. I'd >appreciate any input from Dr. Williams, other vets, or ferret owners >who have experienced such atypical hair loss as Clint has. > >Thanks for your help! >Laura >Arnold, Clint, and Sophie Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:00:24 -0500 From: Lynn McIntosh Subject: Adrenal asymmetrical hair loss; bi-adrenalectomy/vena cava ligations Hi. We also lost our first, Percy (whose story is told in the welcome message I send out to the list) when he blocked due to crystals in his bladder, related to untreated adrenal disease. He'd had a surgery, but nothing was removed, just a small biopsy. I had been making calls to vets trying to figure out to do, when I realized that while many of these vets would see Percy, most hadn't done adrenal surgery, or had done just a couple and no right adrenalectomies and were uncomforatable ligating the vena cava (if that was necessary), or still considered adrenal disease the same as cushings disease in dogs, and treated it as such. I started the list to allay my fear and feeling of isolation, and hopefully others' similar feelings. I never wait if urinary problems are involved. Our fur kids get into surgery as quickly as possible, and I am ready to dunk them in warm water, or put a heating pad on their bellies, and begin massaging their bellies downward, if they block up and, if they don't start peeing immediately, get them to the vet ASAP. I don't see much strictly bi- lateral hair loss. Tufts are seen disappearing here and there, randomly. Any fur loss in my book is suspect for adrenal disease; if other symptoms are present, in my book it's nearly sure. An adrenal panel can be done, or an ultrasound, but adrenal disease can still be present even if these are inconclusive. Lupron and other medications are used in lieu of surgery and are great for non-surgical candidates, but do not stop tumor growth; only surgery, properly done, has a chance to do that. These drugs are discussed on Michael Janke's great website (URL at beginning of this list). I wouldn't hesitate to have a lupron shot administered (the monthly shot) if I couldn't get a fur kid into surgery very soon, and he had peeing problems. I think it can act on the prostate pretty quickly. I'd still get into surgery as quickly as possible. We do have one boy who, at about 6 1/2, had both adrenals removed and his vena cava ligated (the adrenal tumor couldn't be removed in this case without doing so). He has done excellently and is still a big fur ball, and his urinary symptoms have cleared up. He gets a quarter tablet of florinef every other day, every other second day, every other day, etc. His potassium/sodium levels check out well on this doseage. Unfortunately, he has insulinoma now and should get surgery, if I can find a vet I trust (mine is teaching now; darn). For now he's on a low dose of pedipred, but is gaining weight from it already, unfortunately. Wally had a golf-ball sized tumor removed, the right, but the left adrenal was left in. I was disappointed anything was left in, as he'd had this huge right adrenal for a long time (when vet was less experienced and did exploratory she declared it inoperable); even with the huge right adrenal tumor out, Wally's symptoms continued. His insulinoma is advanced, too; surgery for that helped some; he lost weight and could walk better and his pediapred was reduced and Proglycem stopped; both meds are up quite a bit now. He is probably due another surgery. I think his right adrenal has returned; my husband seems to have located a lump. I remember one of the vets posting here that they'd removed a huge right tumor and it had returned in a month! It may have been Dr. Murray. I'm curious what the pathology showed on that tumor. I wish Wally had had both adrenals out. Anyway, with insulinoma, it seems annual surgeries are needed. Anyhoo... that's my two cents! Happy Holidays to those who celebrate! Lynn, and five fur slinks ---------------------- End of FAIML #492 ------------------------