From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 10:12 AM To: mjanke@miamiferret.org Subject: (Fwd) FAIML #62 Forwarded message: From: Self To: @SENDLIST.PML Subject: FAIML #62 Reply-to: Lynn McIntosh Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:54:39 Hi there! Sorry for the delay in getting this out. Christmas has me hopping, though I always start the season vowing to be really low-key. Still, lights and decorations adorn the living room and husband Janos held our Lucille up to me in a shot that would have won any photo contest! - maniacal look in eyes and white Christmas ball with golden shreds torn from a thick strand of tinsel trailing from clutched jaws! This decoration had been part of a strand looped around a picture on the wall! Fuzzy balls and tinsel being big no-nos that decoration is now out of reach. But Tarzan had been eyeballing the piano, which is laden with a dirth of stuffed Chrismas animals and Santas... and nearly toppled a speaker trying to get to a stuffed Santa. He doesn't want the stuffies... cause I gave him some and he hides them and comes back for more! All this in one morning. Thank goodness, we're not having a tree this year!! Four fuzzies got a great gift for Christmas - homes. One of my cherished vets, Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM, recently lost her beloved Robbie to insulinoma. If was very hard for her to even be around fuzzies for awhile, but just this week she and her husband brought two home from the local university's entubation training program! Two others went home with another doctor. Lucky fuzzies. The fuzzies at the university will be getting new digs thanks to a proposal from Cathy, too! But on a lower note, there were 13 baby fuzzies at Petco a week ago, and there were 13 there yesterday - scratching at the glass and looking out as if to ask, what else is there for us? There must be more!! We're here waiting!!! It's HEARTBREAKING... But the Spokane massacre has shown what we all can do if we stick together... so hopefully each year will bring more solutions... ...and more solutions for our fuzzies with neoplasias of all kinds, including pancreatic and adrenal. We got good news yesterday about our adrenal fur kid Wally! (in the last post her, a reply by me to Dr. Karen's reply to me... :) Hopefully with a new Gateway hearkening the new year, we can take the FAIML to new heights in 1998! There is still so much to sort out about adrenal disease, and more about insulinoma... and neoplasms in fuzzies in general! I just want to take a minute to thank you all for helping in many ways... by writing, by reading, by thinking, by loving ferrets. And thanks especially to our fuzzy vets here who are on the medical forefront of helping our fur kids. So... Thank you, thank you, thank you! And, without further ado, a Happy New Year to you all too! ...and, onward to FAIML #62... FAIML #62, dated December 21, 1997 1. Reply: Dr. Karen re: dry/calloused paws 2. Info about incidence of adrenals in Europe... 3. Reply: Dr. Karen re: dry/calloused paws 4. Reply: Dr. Karen re: dry/calloused paws 5. Fw: Adrenal Pics 6. Reply to Fiona (re: need for pred.) and Dr. K. (re undiagnosed parvo-like illness); question about anesthesia related to exploratory surgery 7. Use of Baytrill for enlarged prostate 8. University of Tennessee tests 9. Reply: Dr. Karen re: lysodren 10. Reply to Dr. Karen re: lysodren 1.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:44:51 -0500 From: Joanne Gelormino Subject Reply: Dr. Karen re: dry/calloused paws > Dr. Karen wrote: > > On all of my adrenal children (3 to date) one of the symptoms that I have > noticed is that the pads of the paws get a very dry callus on them, my non > adrenal kids do not show that particular trait. Do you think that this > particular trait has any credibility in determining an adrenal patient? > > > -Dr. Karen > > I have noticed that Slinky's rear paws are dry, but not the front. He had left > adrenal out over a year ago. He has dry skin and itches so I spray him with a > ferret spray and brush him; it seems to help. I have also begun to put aloe > vera gel on his rear paws to see if that will help the dryness. > > My sympathies to Lisa on the loss of her Kyle. He has plenty of good company > at the Bridge. Moxie 2.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:57 -0600 (CST) From: Amy Cada Subject: info about incidence of adrenals in Europe... I have finally had a chance to not only meet a reputable european breeder, but I met all of her ferrets this past week! She flew in with all seven of her babies and we discussed for several hours the conformation, health, and longevity of her animals, as well as those in her ferret club back in Holland. The results: all of her ferrets, and European ferrets in general, are "bulldog" bodied--shorter tails, shorter heads, smaller ears, VERY muscular, fantastic coats. Lifespan? MINIMUM of 8 years, 9-10 is common. The 6-7 years we "expect" with Marshall Farms ferrets really shocked her. Finally, the incidence of adrenal tumors...I said, how many of your ferrets have had adrenal tumors? 1....out of over 90 in the past 14 years (this number includes quite a few rescues).... Blew me away when I told her the stat here is about 1 in 2. I firmly believe this is a result of the increased inbreeding here as well as the extreme early neutering. I have been following over 50 ferrets that were neutered at 6 months (used through a demo program) and NONE have developed adrenal tumors as of yet, and most are 5-6 years old.... Just a thought, a scary one, but a thought. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Amy Cada Department of Behavioral Neuroscience, UT Down yonder in Texas!! Terrierists: Asta NA & Gryphon (scots) & Wylie (WFT) agility, obedience, flyball, water, and ratting freak-a-zoids geriatric ferrets: Farris & Hobbes; Zowie & Foster @ RB ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:04:40 -0600 From: Rochelle Newman Subject: Reply: Dr. Karen, dry/calloused paws >On all of my adrenal children (3 to date) one of the symptoms that I have >noticed is that the pads of the paws get a very dry callus on them, my non >adrenal kids do not show that particular trait. Do you think that this >particular trait has any credibility in determining an adrenal patient? I've seen this on a few ferrets, and talked to some shelter people about it, but it hasn't seemed to be related to adrenal disease in our cases. One person I know found that this problem disappeared once they switched from clay litter to a wood-pelleted litter. We had no such luck; we have a rescue that we took in 3 (?) years ago that has had this problem fairly consistently since we got her -- I can't believe if this was adrenal we wouldn't have seen SOME other symptom by now! I've heard that this can be caused by household allergies, but I know that isn't the case with us, either (we've moved from the east to the midwest, and from a house with hardwood floors to one thats wall-to-wall carpet, with no apparent differences whatsoever. Nor did changing foods, going onto well-water, changing household cleaning agents, etc. make a difference . . .) -------------------------------------------------------- Rochelle Newman rochelle-newman@uiowa.edu Department of Psychology (319) 335-2417 University of Iowa (319) 335-0191 (fax) 11 Seashore Hall E Iowa City, IA 52242-1407 http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Newman.html -------------------------------------------------------- 4.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:28:24 -0500 From: "Michael F. Janke" Subject: Reply: Dr. Karen re: dry/calloused paws > From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" > Subject: other signs of adrenal disease (please post) > > Folks, > Got the following info, has anyone else noticed this? > > On all of my adrenal children (3 to date) one of the symptoms that I have > noticed is that the pads of the paws get a very dry callus on them I did not see that in my adrenal ferrets, though I can't honestly say that I closely examined their pads on any particular occasion. Angela, our shelter operator, has probably seen a few hundred adrenal ferrets and will ask her if she has seen anything like that. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke - mjanke@gate.net * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * * Shelter Home Page - http://www.gate.net/~mjanke 5.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:04:23 -0500 From: dayna frazier Subject: Fw: Adrenal Pics Dear Lynn.. Here is a photo of the before and after of one of my adrenal ferrets in the protocol ... her vet has given her a clean bill of health and he is the one who diagnosed her in the first place.. btw.. the vet is as amazed as I am .. The change is far more dramatic than I have seen to date.. but she is on the more developed woozle goo also.. [the one on my web page] and is on an ongoing dose of pred that is minimal twice a week .. what do you think? dayna ps: you might send this on to Dr. Karen for comment as well .. I don't have her address or I would do so although it would be presumptuous of me to do so.. Feel free to wrtie the Ways with questions as well, they are very nice people and will 'tell all' where their Tigger girl is concerned.. :) dayna ---------- > From: One Of The Ways > To: dayna frazier > Cc: Bob Martin > Subject: Adrenal Pics > Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 8:43 PM > > Hi Dayna, Diana here, > > Hear are the Pics of Tigger I promised you, all of them together for a one > screen comparison. > Have a good night.. Want Your comments too Bob. Bob are you still in > trouble??? > > What do you think about that Dayna and Bob. Pretty tail now don't you > think.? 6.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:16:10 -0500 From: dayna frazier Subject: reply to Fiona and Dr. K. Hi.. to Fiona.. I have an urgent need for pred.. I have ferrets in my protocol and others with adrenal disease and no way to get them operated on or help them on the way soon.. if it is still available please send me an e-mail at woozles@inmind.com.. its kind and generous of you to offer it to people with these diseases.. I appreciate your offer even if the pred is no longer available.. Your a really great fuzzy Mom! to Dr, K. this condition hit the ferrets I have seen with no vaccinations within weeks to months.. I had wondered about Parvo but am also concerned about possible Corona Virus.. it hits fast like this and is also a severe weakness condition due to the digestive side problems.. and it kills litters of dogs within hours when it hits unweaned puppies.. I am looking in to the possibility that the ferrets not affected may have been vaccinated with the 45 or 7 in one dog vaccine booster shots and so did not get what so devastated these little ones.. that would not hold for my kids as all have had Fervac D only.. but two ferrets I know of have had the combination shots and the one that got sick had Fervac D only.. that's what set me to wondering.. Is it possible those shots for dogs for everything from flu to Corona could give some small protection to ferrets.. after all a ferret is 'a looong skinny cat with dog organs inside' to quote my favorite vet whe trying to describe a ferret to a vet on the phone doing his first ferret surgery.. I laughed at that description for weeks even if it is pretty accurate.. next question.. Has anyone but me done any sort of comparison of ferrets placed under Isoflourine with out pre op shot etc.. and with out the use of any sort of restraints either before or during the surgical procedure as opposed to ferrets where pre op med and restraints are used [or just restraints].. and then drawn conclusions concerning the effect restraints have on the shock factor during and/or post op .. I only have a relatively small study number of my own to go by.. about 120 cases.. my conclusions are there fore not going to be significant numerically.. but there is a very definite difference in the time the vet can spend safely with the ferret open on the table, between the ferrets restrained and those not restrained.. and the post op recovery time and the relative ease of countering post op thermal shock and other types of post op shock are also very definitely different for the restrained ferret as opposed to those placed under anesthesia without use of pre op shot or restraints.. I am very interested in this consideration as it is difficult for a vet doing a 'seek and destroy' surgery when they have to get out before the complete exploratory and correction is truly completed and pray they got it all.. this has to be the most frustrating aspect of vet med.. a very senior or very frail ferret can't stand too long on the table and the safe addition of even a few minutes for the vet can be significant.. or at least it has been in my experience. I'd like to have your views/experience on this subject if you would not mind sharing it with the list.. many of the people with an adrenal surgery or other surgery pending are understandably concerned over the ability of the ferret to withstand the procedure.. just as the use of Isoflouene has made a huge difference to ferret surgery so too may the manner of anesthetising the ferret be a significant factor.. thanks for your time Dr. K.. and everyone.. this is a really important subject to me.. being an underground rescue and shelter for nearly 18 years gave a whole new meaning to 'if it works do it'.. :) remind me to tell you the method for making a nose only oxygen mask for a ferret with severe smoke inhalation some time.. I guarantee you it will give you a giggle.. talk about 'jury rigging'.. sheesh! but it worked for 41 ferrets and that was all I cared about.. :) dayna and the woozles of the MMOMM rescue/shelter ps.. instead of stringing pocorn string cheerios .. your ferrets will love you for it! :] 7.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:09:38 -0500 From: Joanne Gelormino Subject: Use of Baytrill for enlarged prostate I was reading some back issues of this newsletter and saw some posts recommending the antibiotic Baytrill for the prostate. Does anyone know the correct dosage? My Slinky (6 year old adrenal ferret with left adrenal removed) has been straining a bit to urinate and I have seen several references that the prostate could be infected and a round of antibiotics may help. Thanks and Happy Holidays Moxie and Slinky 8.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:57:43 -0500 (EST) From: clare@astro.umd.edu Subject: University of Tennessee tests I'm interested in knowing how common false negatives (or results that underestimate the extent of the problem) are with the University of Tennessee ferret adrenal panel. In other words, is this test worth having done when a ferret has borderline symptoms? We have two ferrets with some subtle signs that may indicate adrenal disease, and we're wondering if we should get the tests done. The reason we're hesitating is that the previous time we used the test the results were not accurate. I posted this question before but didn't get any answers, so I thought I'd try again. Thanks, Clare Sebok 9.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:26:56 +0000 From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Subject: Reply: Dr. Karen re: lysodren Lynn, Feel free to post this. You wrote: >> I have a few medical questions. What emergency protocol(s) is recommended for fuzzies who have a toxic reaction to the chemo drug Lysodren (mitotane)? >> Supportive care (IV's if necessary, hand or tube feeding hi caloric food, ceasing lysodren treatment... << What would happen if a non-adrenal fuzzy (say one who appeared to have adrenal disease, but didn't) were treated with Lysodren? << Depends on the fuzzy, but I would expect signs of weakness, lasck of interest in life, decreased appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. All this will stop once the meds are stopped and the adrenals are able to recover. << Have vets heard of other cases like Pam's Oreo's, where by all appearanced the adrenal fuzzy seemed to be recovering as a result of Lysodren therapy, but a follow-up blood test showed an extremely high estradial level? Our fuzzy Wally also appears to be recovering through Lysodren therapy, but we haven't gotten the follow-up test yet. If Oreo is indeed not recovering, this could be very bad news for those of us with fuzzies who appear to recovering through Lysodren therapy. << Actually, Pam's Oreo probably derived quite a bit of suppression with the lysodren, but it wasn't complete (the estradiol level probably would have been much higher without treatment, though there is no way to know). >> Wally has full, beautiful hair regrowth and his weight is fine; also plenty of energy and very playful. How I pray this is not a mean ruse on us. >> My prayers also. -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com In memory of Freya and Muscatel, part of my life joyfully but not long enough. 10.---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:28:45 -0800 (PST) From: Lynn Mcintosh To: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Subject: Reply to Dr. Karen re: lysodren Hi Dr. Karen. Thank you very much for your answers.... which, naturally, led to another question :) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Karen Purcell, DVM wrote: > I have a few medical questions. > > What emergency protocol(s) is recommended for fuzzies who have a toxic > reaction to the chemo drug Lysodren (mitotane)? > >> > Supportive care (IV's if necessary, hand or tube feeding hi > caloric food, ceasing lysodren treatment... This is exactly what we've done for Wally when he was exhibiting hind end weakness and/or nausea. But I believe, for a fuzzy who is near unconsciousness due to extreme toxicity, there is some kind of injection that can be given. I think it's prednisone, but it seems my vet mentioned something else (beginning with d...) It's buried somewhere in one of my... oh wait... I remember where! Dexamethodone! I think, for anyone just beginning Lysoldren, being equipped with the specific emergency protocol recommended by their fuzzy vet would be an excellent idea (in case they end up at an emergency clinic). Do you recommend any additional therapy for extreme toxic reactions that may occur in the beginning of Lysodren therapy (or due to an overdose, such as if two people unknowingly gave a treatment to the same fuzzy on the same day)? > What would happen if a non-adrenal fuzzy (say one who appeared to have > adrenal disease, but didn't) were treated with Lysodren? > << > Depends on the fuzzy, but I would expect signs of weakness, lasck > of interest in life, decreased appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. > All this will stop once the meds are stopped and the adrenals are > able to recover. That's a relief. I'd venture a guess some prednisone at this point would help, too, to help boost the adrenal function. > Have vets heard of other cases like Pam's Oreo's, where by all appearanced > the adrenal fuzzy seemed to be recovering as a result of Lysodren therapy, > but a follow-up blood test showed an extremely high estradial level? Our > fuzzy Wally also appears to be recovering through Lysodren therapy, but we > haven't gotten the follow-up test yet. If Oreo is indeed not recovering, > this could be very bad news for those of us with fuzzies who appear to > recovering through Lysodren therapy. >> > Actually, Pam's Oreo probably derived quite a bit of suppression > with the lysodren, but it wasn't complete (the estradiol level > probably would have been much higher without treatment, though there > is no way to know). I asked Cathy Johnson-Delaney, DVM, who was over yesterday to give Wally his second Lupron shot (and said his tumor was much smaller!). She said basically the same thing, and added that if the tumor had reached the adeno-carcinoma stage that, well, Lysodren may not stop it. Wouldn't some suppression be better than none, though, especially if clinical signs - hair regrowth, vulva sweeling decreased or nonapparent, more energy - are good? > Wally has full, beautiful hair regrowth and his weight is fine; also > plenty of energy and very playful. How I pray this is not a mean ruse on > us. > >> > My prayers also. Bless you Dr. Karen. It seems your prayers may have been heard! Cathy said that Wally's kidney is back where it should be, and had a much tougher time finding the tumor... we couldn't have had better Christmas news. I don't know if it's due to just the Lysodren or was helped by the Lurpon shot three weeks ago. Cathy says that adrenal tissue goes through three stages, hyperplasia, adenoma, and adenoma-carcinoma. Catching adrenal problems early on in the game, then, seems very important. I recently got a back issue of Modern Ferret (#5) wherein the section "The Doctor Replies" is an interesting reply by David Kupersmith, DVM, about adrenal disease. He's responding to a question "When treating hyperadrenocorticism, how early is early?" I'll just quote a couple lines from his answer: "To me, the limiting factor is the size of the normal adrenal gland. A normal ferret adrenal gland is 2 mm or less. An enlarged gland may therefore by as small as 4 mm. This is so small that the enlargement can be missed with an ultrasonic exam if early in the course of the disease... ... If I suspect an adrenal tumor, I may have an owner come in for recheck exams on monthly or bimonthly basis until I feel the clinical signs are more likely to go along with a detectable tuomr... early is that point at which I feel that I have a good chance of locating the affected gland. In other words, early is a subjective, not an objective, interpretation." Our first exploratory, on Percy, bless his heart, who is gone, was fruitless. But, then, there's the case where symptoms are ongoing and multiple exploratories yield nothing! Where the extraneous hormones seem to be caused by something else than abnormal adrenal tissue... perhaps something awry in the pituatary-hypothalamic feedback loop.. I better quit here, which is where adrenal disease seems even more mysterious! Anyway, a Happy New Year to all, especially, a healing year to all needful fuzzies!!! Lynn Mc. and the Gang of Seven - all fuzzy now! (and, as always, my "Star Rainbow" kids: Percy, Schroedee Boat, and Squeekers with his neural tube siblings, Erb' and those unnamed...) -------------------------End of FAIML #62-------------------------